change advances

[scarface]

hi all, I ask this wonderful question.according to you ? it is appropriate to amend the advances on a map with normal editing?let's talk about advances that are not too exaggerated.
I sincerely change them wrapped a grade one and a half when I exaggerate with the diesel for? I don't know if something as reliable as a modification to

[msport (exil77grande)]

hi all, I ask this wonderful question.according to you ? it is appropriate to amend the advances on a map with normal editing?let's talk about advances that are not too exaggerated.
I sincerely change them wrapped a grade one and a half when I exaggerate with the diesel for? I don't know if something as reliable as a modification to

From my point of view on standard maps do not need to complicate your life and it is not expedient to change completely advances.

[scarface]

according to me, a degree helps to better burn the fuel so as to have a combustion much more? clean for? ec question mark if this grade is given to a high rpm engine will not face any damage

[magi1984]

on standard maps, I will not touch them ever,you don't need me

[giarras]

if we are talking about an engine processed even if ? diesel where you seek performance and not reliability? I agree to change advances, but in a car with standard maps, and with normal use, as they say, above our friends is not worth

[giarras]

sorry giarras ? what would it be worth it??

it is not convenient to edit them, here's what I want to say x is not worth it. and a way of saying sicilian hahhhhaa

[giarras]

it is also said by us in puglia cos? but I asked you to specify, according to you, "worth" what does it entail?? to which are you referring to in particular??

I will explain to you one thing;
if we are talking about engines with combustion x 1/2 spark i.e. gasoline, alcohol, etc., according to me, are worth the time, but in diesel engines with the exception of some 2-stroke, no!..but I could also be wrong:
the advance of the flow is used to optimize the combustion itself, anticipating the flow of oil to the chamber or pre-chamber combustion whenever the engine increases in rpm, cos? that the diesel fuel to burn before the piston reaches TDC (top dead point) where the performance ? almost zero, why? in the diesel engine ? the piston to ignite the fuel by compressing
I hope I was clear.

[tezzero]

In common rail systems to increase the advance according to me ? less incisive why? one of the nuances? of the system ? to increase the pressure and cc of diesel within the same injection time..while in the older systems it was necessary to increase the stroke of the slider controls, which consequently delayed the injection..correct me if I've done something wrong...

[tezzero]

All true what you say...but your question goes beyond the garden!!!,for now unfortunately I can not cover for me to be an engineer..for sure I can say that in the diesel of this and the past generation that you can't? overdo it with the advance..arise many challenges given by the mechanical structure of the engine

[tezzero]

I know the diesel engine, shelter mainly injection systems diesel of old and new generation for more than 20 years what you say in part is fine but between the theory and the practice, how do you know there goes.*****s, you can always have fun if you have the time to make maps with advances and important test, if you notice that the motor draws significant benefits places the files and we work on it all together for them..

[tezzero]

I don't seem to be uncivil or rude...advice: avoid the parentheses...

[tezzero]

I think it is useless to specify basic concepts...all qu? no problem!!

[cattivik]

munro I think like you... in the cr and pd, I prefer working on advances pi? that increase significantly the prex turbo x! but as in every job, each has its own method

[speed]

Also, according to me, better not to touch them, if you calculate bad the exhaust gas temperatures rise too much, and you ricshia.

[cattivik]

Let us remember that x will? manufacturers want x nn be too much competition in both the x back in to some of the regulations the car, leave management software, coarse and nn optimal, or better, with parameters below the actual potential? also x as confirmed by other users. In my case I do applications big turbo and only significantly changing some of the maps I can have response times similar to the original, taking x as the turbolag delays few or non-existent.
I ask a question on a vehicle where it is ? decided to take a strong increase in performance you would prefer to work on pressure turbo or advances, and pressures?

[Chris156]

if you're always talking of diesel the only way to get more power and give diesel...
and it's useless to try a thousand maps or a thousand other ways to let go of a motor..need diesel in the pi?
and if you want to give diesel v? in the map on ? you d?...point.
all of the other things you mentioned cattivik are maps of "outline" to harmonize all the parameters to the new request of nafta...
for the increase of pressure ? a mod that I really like while advances like I said I few post f? and as you rightly did you also notice you homes costtrutrici you keep the "loose" in this sense, then, to some degree, especially with the injection times are very long I would prefer to give it also because to every degree of advance corresponds on average to an increase of 10 bar in the combustion chamber and then on the piston and on the whole kinematic chain...
translated "force"....
I fully agree with you..
moreover, the idea that to inject too much out of the pms serves nothing and ? deleterious.

[acid]

in my small way, I have learned that every car ? a story ,
in parit? version I happened to have diversity? ,
for wear and tear or parts poor/economic replaced over time
it leads you to behave accordingly in mapping
ori or the mod that is the car if you need to anticipate the injection
it is anticipated :)

[Chris156]

since there are opinions controstanti on the change of the advances, I pray all to say your thinking about specifying the reasons, perhaps using examples technical or practical examples!!!
So let's see if you**** these popular rumor.

[franco75]

I say I supermegaprincipiante, I would increase in an engine is that ? a bit knackered and chilometrato, I would leave them instead of the original in a new engine

[bart]

st? preparing for a hearing rather a lot about the topic that I believe chiarir? several aspects or at least the intent would be to...
please be patient with st? collecting material to try to do something useful...

Great munro, appearance, anxious to read your guide... :)



...to every degree of advance results in an average increase of 10 bar in the room, bursting, and then on the piston and on the whole kinematic chain...
translated "force"....

But in this case you wear early on, even the mechanics of the engine (manovellismi, bushings, pistons, etc...)

[ecuboost]

thanks, always useful

[dvdtuning]

thanks munro, I read it all and I have to say that ? an excellent guide.
You talked about more? times of the ignition, but I don't understand if you want every single cycle of the piston, or the engine?
What I learned by reading the info and seeing many maps ? the advance (especially in the mjet 150 hp), which is incremented in fixed mode, high-load and instead in the old jtd 115 is given gradually with the increase of rpm.
I wanted to know if ? a way to correct, and why

[cicciogsr]

here's to you guys, as promised....and I have to say that this is not a guide to real own on how and where to intervene to moddare this parameter, but as you will read, it is a series of observations to try to understand this complex parameter of the diesel engine...

hi sorry I did not understand well the things that what does it mean to transform the isentropic?... if it produces heat during the compression ? certainly a transformation of the ideal, but with dissipation, and then not ? some isentropic..... I don't want to continue to emphasize that this report documents translated into English are difficult to understand from all claims little true...and anyway, at the end ? 't understand how to change the angle of start of injection( this ? the exact wording of the advance in the diesel engine), I don't want to make too much simple... known as the iq that vuooi inject you with calculations, how far in advance we want to center the phase profit of combustion to be there? you need a series of experimental measurements of the function with the map ori of the car... and in any case, if you inject out-of-phase useful to limit the post-combustion can have advantages in the transient increase of the speed? emptying of the combustion chamber..

[cicciogsr]

make a log of iq and advance with the map ori, and detects the values after we see how to modify once you have increased the port diesel... if you don't change your attitude not esporr? own nothing I am not a teacher but only a fan like you..

[Chris156]

make a log of iq and advance with the map ori, and detects the values after we see how to modify once you have increased the port diesel... if you don't change your attitude not esporr? own nothing I am not a teacher but only a fan like you..

You're always the number 1 ciccio!!!! ;)

[franco75]

It is a perfect ignorant as they are, it would be necessary to distinguish two things:
1. Management of the advance, in general, for any diesel engine, excluding the CR with multiple injections
2. The timing of the multiiniezioni in general, and CR
It would be necessary, according to me, before addressing the topic, describe how you are managing multiiniezioni, or know the various quantities, the timing, and how they are related to one another.
I have a couple of questions,
According to you, the postiniezione can affect the preiniezione?
When you speak of advance you are referring to the one of the preiniezione or main?

[Chris156]

I am reading the file on advances... I think that what ? written said I in a few words in various posts I have written!!!

[cicciogsr]

but from that document, it is understood only the reasons not to change them but not how to modify them and explain how to calculate the duration of injection in degrees, but does not explain practically how to do it and honestly seeing the attitude a little constructive of some users, I say to you with many frankness, that if you post a log of a 4-stroke engine with spontaneous ignition of the dar? gladly, the eye of the pi? not to make?.. the document you if you can understand it I'm here to read your explanations why? for me says it all and nothing..

[franco75]

ciccio if you tell me what it takes to make the log I will soon gladly.
I have a elm327 bluetooth, a tablet with full torque.
Are enough or I need something more professional?

[cicciogsr]

on the fiat group's cr should be elm327 and edf to do a complete log

[Chris156]

but from that document, it is understood only the reasons not to change them but not how to modify them and explain how to calculate the duration of injection in degrees, but does not explain practically how to do it and honestly seeing the attitude a little constructive of some users, I say to you with many frankness, that if you post a log of a 4-stroke engine with spontaneous ignition of the dar? gladly, the eye of the pi? not to make?.. the document you if you can understand it I'm here to read your explanations why? for me says it all and nothing..

? what I was explaining the other day... what do you not understand? I have come to read the met?.. I would not say not to touch them, in fact.... it seems that he wrote it myself..even if there are some things without sense, but it will be? the fault of the translation..

[dvdtuning]

In case explains the importance of the advances and changes that must adapt to the other parameters. Explain the principles of fuel injection and the operation, when and where to inject, etc.
Usually in the moddarli will be adjusted based on how much fuel you require?

[cicciogsr]

I understand perfectly what c'? written but not d? a policy certain to change and does not distinguish between the various injections.. I am not the mod of advances for maps that do not exceed a certain range, and I have done all the necessary tests and I can say that if advances too, as you only have exhaust manifolds glowing and nervousness due to too much compression do you have a car that top seems to stop.. the old jtd does not love to have injected diesel too soon, because? you may scompensare the pre-injection and the right moment to enter the field and the main at full load... if I say instead that the advance payments should be touched on maps thrusts to help inject large quantities? of fuel by the physical limits of the stress that you download on aorgani mechanical, I'd agree, and you always have to compensate for the advances of the various injections...

[cicciogsr]

In case explains the importance of the advances and changes that must adapt to the other parameters. Explain the principles of fuel injection and the operation, when and where to inject, etc.
Usually in the moddarli will be adjusted based on how much fuel you require?

on the basis of the fuel actually injected

[Chris156]

Finished reading!!!! I had to put commitment!!!!
I vorei understand why ? been added to the conclusion at the end..it has nothing to do with all the explanation.. and I have to say that if you have a smattering advanced of this world will understand easily there? who wants to say..they are perfectly consistent with what I say..
Ciccio do you remember the example I made of a diesel aspirated? it perfectly follows the dynamic logic of loading the fuel and the ignition.

[cicciogsr]

ok then explain to me the strategy of injection of a cr edc16 between pre-main and post injections how would you chamfering the injection, consistent with acceptable pressures and temperatures that do not affect the volumetric efficiency of the engine... reading that document, I have asked myself many questions.. for me we take into account a few variables.. on the diesel you can afford many approximations, but not ? said that make it good..

[Chris156]

the problem ? the pressure inside the cylinder.. and no.. :rolleyes:

[msport (exil77grande)]

the boys and I refer to munro (even if the guy is not heeh) and cicciogsr I kindly ask you not to create any friction between you that then you perquote in the various post because it's not the first time that it happens,munro, you need to understand that ciccio studies and maybe some of the things he sees differently if I believe that wrapped writes in a manner a little too presauntuosa and definitely does not have your experience in the field . ciccio you must understand that munro is doing its best to make a contribution to the forum by sharing what they know, or think they know, or that is on the web ne + ne - indeed, I believe, is to be admired,for the rest of this attitude on this forum do not want to see otherwise apart from this that it is a reference only written beginning with the infringements, and if you continue with the ban,here writes and discusses serenely who knows or believes to know can write without superiority and no obligation and anyone who thinks otherwise can do this,you just have to think that I learn from those who do not even know what a mapping and vice versa,it only takes humility,I hope the speech is clear for both and anyway, I noticed that munro which mature person that it has already deleted the post where he intervened in a manner not adequate sign of having understood

[Chris156]

the boys and I refer to munro (even if the guy is not heeh) and cicciogsr I kindly ask you not to create any friction between you that then you perquote in the various post because it's not the first time that it happens,munro, you need to understand that ciccio studies and maybe some of the things he sees differently if I believe that wrapped writes in a manner a little too presauntuosa and definitely does not have your experience in the field . ciccio you must understand that munro is doing its best to make a contribution to the forum by sharing what they know, or think they know, or that is on the web ne + ne - indeed, I believe, is to be admired,for the rest of this attitude on this forum do not want to see otherwise apart from this that it is a reference only written beginning with the infringements, and if you continue with the ban,here writes and discusses serenely who knows or believes to know can write without superiority and no obligation and anyone who thinks otherwise can do this,you just have to think that I learn from those who do not even know what a mapping and vice versa,it only takes humility,I hope the speech is clear for both and anyway, I noticed that munro which mature person that it has already deleted the post where he intervened in a manner not adequate sign of having understood

:) I fully agree, but I know jack and ? a good guy..
munro does very well to post some documneti.. they are all guys ingamba!!!

[msport (exil77grande)]

:) I fully agree, but I know jack and ? a good guy..
munro does very well to post some documneti.. they are all guys ingamba!!!


if it is for this and I ciccio us know in person and no one has touched on the merits only a small squabbles from the forum can easily be solved.

[cicciogsr]

chapter closed ... they are here to learn from people who have a lot of experience.. my studies now concluded, lead me to analyze problems with an approach perhaps too theoretical and the practical ... my style of response ? just to make people reflect and to stimulate discussion in the to ask questions that can help you think...will change? attitude

[cicciogsr]

I apologize to munro and with all those to whom I could give the impression of lacking respect.

[savek]

according to my humble opinion, if you make a map soft ok but if you go a little further with the diesel you have to touch them to burn everything and to lower a bit the egt

[mcjtd]

but there is a correct way to change them? or perlo less c'? a calculation that you can? do??I have always wondered how to act listing of resources advances,and for this I wanted to ask you,seen that you talk about it,we put the case we have an injection of 60mm3 of fuel with an injector opening time in microseconds 795us and the advance ori ? to 21? btdc as you f? to know in degrees how long does the injection??and especially if I wanted to increase the injection time of 10% bringing the opening of the injector to 874,5 us to avoid injecting out of time how can I recalculate the advance??

[savek]

if them increases by only 10% l' ecu in automatic autoadatta then anticipates alone

[mcjtd]

not I think

[savek]

if ? a edc16 ago but with the 10% increase on the times I don't think there is a need to anticipate...

[mcjtd]

if you say it
I am, however, a half-idea I made also on the basis of you have injection times and the cio? if at 4000 rpm I have a time of injection
of 795us to know how long the degree opens the injector I do this calculation 4000X360?degrees=1440000 these are the degrees in a minute in a second make? 1440000/60=24000 degrees / second now to find out how many degrees do? the motor according to the injection time lighthouse 24000/795=30? degrees... I say pu? be feasible? I recommend you do not make revenue read, and then do all the omertosi....

[munro]

it might be feasible as a calculation, but this refers to the duration of the injection, not when "part" with this calculation, for example you could calculate when the end of the injection according to time in advance of injection of that?:advance from pms 21? duration 30?> 30-21=9? it could be that the injection ends at 9? degrees after tdc...? what to expect, say those who have studied..and I am referring especially to cicciogsr and chris156...I'm curious to hear what people have to say...

[cicciogsr]

I time ago I built a table that roughly allowed me to evaluate both the duration and angle in the beginning to dispose of the whole capacity after several measurements, I realized that the values were not the measured values... and then ? good to start from a log ori, to understand which values in the tables are significant for the change... after you set the iq that you want to inject and you calculate how much before tdc you need to start injecting goes well the method posted before ... I, personally, for the type of map that I like to do is not advance a damn thing why? I try to take advantage of the post injection to decrease the transient and do not have high pressures in the room.. for the rest, each person has his own method and from my experience the mod of advance payments for standard maps under 30 hp do not serve, indeed, create problems at full load ... this ? my opinion..

[munro]

then cicciogsr before this post vengafra intended I accept your apology and I offer my if I do not think that you should but somehow we have arrived at this situation where I have no problems to do it..? c'? a for?! and I have to say that your intent to change your style and attitude in the post with your posted above just posted ? in sharp conflict with what you charge as a change of attitude..
to be more understandable, I will say that if one responds apparently as you have just done you turning only around the questions but not giving any concrete answer or at least an anticipation of exactly this..bh?? we are always l?..your attitude does not change...and what you think you know you keep for yourself and not put it in the discussion of the other...
regardless of all of this for? your opinion as such ? reason of maximum respect but conclaratamente not leading to no conclusion or starting point for reasoning with relevant and constructive with what you are asked in the post...
then you do not wish to respond to the thread and sign this ? your sacred right, but at least in the post that you write try to be less dispersive in response to specific questions..
to return a p? in the topic, and the more the technician will report my experience "field" with the injection pumps bosch P7100 or the like that? those in line with mechanical adjustment of all the parameters..
well I have noticed for example that partendoda a flow of 270 ccm diesel with these pumps with an excursion to the rack of the piston 17mm if incrementavo the stroke of the latter also to 21 mm, the maximum for the P7100(maybe tezzero or lumaracing can confirm) the total quantity of diesel fuel also increases up to 350cc but the power in spite of the diesel fuel in most remains almost the same! all what you get ? a fumosit? exaggerated and egt temperatures rising dangerously why ? the obvious sign that all of that fuel in the most did not lengthen the duration of the injection going "off time" to get power and going in the post-combustion chamber...
of against always on these pumps, I noticed that, leaving almost unchanged the "rack of compressors which are" more or less original, but by mounting the pump unit larger or camshafts of the pumps with the most lift I noticed a definite increase in power and a fumosit? almost irrillevante ancheavendo the same quantity? cc fuel injected...all this always with the times in advance, or as like to say to you of the beginning of injection is always the same!! this must also reflect in the light of that the much-maligned document the discussion on the topic from me posted and then deleted

[cicciogsr]

maybe when I write I do not s? express well, let's take a file and analyze it together with you in advance that I don't always have the chance? to stay at the pc place the files in my drive an old jtd cos? we try to think about the time of the injection and advance of course I can answer based on my opinion and experience a exact methodology ? hard to find-why? there are too many variables and approximations in the game, the formulas that you mentioned before in the last post I wrote that can go well on the card then you have to check if they really are ? carried out there? you ? set in the map, it was not my intention to be vague, I try to make the experience with you, I don't want you to think that? that I think is correct and indeed I learn from your skills...

[cicciogsr]

injection time: 7cd10 7cac8 7c880
advance: 7e3f4 7e5f4

seems like an ecu simple but in its simplicity? ? 't understand why? the maps are not defined and framed with a pattern as in edc16 axes lead to the deception... now let's take a look and try to find a correlation between these two maps, neglecting the effects of all the other...

[cicciogsr]

the maximum value of the injection time should be 1151 us while the maximum value in the tab in advance ? about 20 degrees

[munro]

ciccio I have no way to see the files on the pc because for some reason to me unknown, the only sw of editing that I work a p? on the pc, and winols demo, but as I think you know this does not allow you to view a file from the ecu breck point for breck point so please what I ask of you ? you're the one i "our eyes" in the file, or at least consistent with your time if you can postaredegli screen where simple words can not explain your concepts...
at least until the lighthouse format the pc to resolve this issue...
returning to the us, and "our file study" we were at 1151 microseconds maximum time tinj and about 20? degrees the maximum of the beginning of the injection...what do you want us to understand, kindly?
and especially these two maximum values, respectively, how many laps we have them?? or for your explanation of the rpm should not be considered??

[cicciogsr]

try to find a sw that allows you to view the maps do screen ? too dispersive cos? we see involve a p? all, in engines with commonrail the time of injection z-axis of the map in question ? related to the. of fuel and the injection pressure for now there are no speed? rotation in the game, now the value 1151 if we do not relate to the other two coordinates is of no avail, for that ecu ? the injection time necessary to inject the maximum flow rate allowed in theory to the injectors to the maximum pressure that can? ensure the fuel injection system... now you tell me which are the other two coordinates are related to 1151 a p? of commitment on the part of all, I'm putting but papp? ready I do not mean to give the answer why? then I take to the professor and the gi? mene you have said enough... I'm trying to explain my vision there give? an policy exact, but I hope that we'll find it together.. of course we talk about advance I can explain to you what are the maps a for a with bp and off-set.. etc.. these notions I'd like to give her for granted, otherwise we go off-topic.. place the tables in a map of the times, and one of the advance...

[munro]

for edc15 in the map times, we have the coordinate rpm and rail pressure, and those numbers need to be converted to 0,496 or 0,946 I don't remember well...
while the advances we have always for the edc15 rpm and the iq of the coordinates and the descriptor has to be converted from one to the degrees of the factor 46 the cio? for each of the 46 points corresponds to a degree....
for the sw goes on well without a screen because to operate any sw I have to format the pc and then something long...
p.s:cos'? the offset?

[cicciogsr]

first, I wrote that the value of 1151 ? related to the flow rate to be injected and the pressure of injection, then it means that that number ? tied to the rail pressure and quantity? diesel fuel and not as you say the rpm and pressure...in the axis, you have pressure, and iq.. for down payments ? ok ... the axis of the advances are not well defined in this ecu that seems simple, but instead deceives... and then you them you need to frame for the logic and the similarity with the map of the times.

[munro]

the only thing that I can think of that have in common the map times and the ancipo and the iq...on the basis of wing iq, the ecu increases the advance to give "tempo2 the diesel fuel injected to burn... at least logically....

[cicciogsr]

perfect, then, in this way, in the map you can evaluate the advance for the amount? diesel introduced originally... in a few words to inject x diesel injection must begin to y degrees...this ? the theory we have to see if in diagnosis, we find the values that are in the map... if it's so? was once you have determined how much to inject, we can calculate the relative angle of the beginning and check that once made the length in degrees of the injection there is consistency with the advance ... I'd like that as well the people who have more? experience for me to participate-for example, I'd like to hear the opinion of people who map for years as administrators, etc..

[munro]

translated into numbers, this is how we calculate?

[cicciogsr]

you could make a proportion with the original values once you have assessed the maximum flow rate ... I think I understand that you know well pumps and injectors then I think you know what'? the limit of the injectors of the car and its pump pretend that you want to inject the deal? the maximum to which you can? get do you calculate the advance while maintaining a performance similar to the original... test on any commonrail and tell me what you have... if the ori ecu injects, for example, 70 mm^3, with an advance of 20? made the account how far in advance we want to inettare the maximum possible... I want to reiterate that we are tying injection time and advance... we're not pulling in dance and other things..

[cicciogsr]

I'm reminded of sottolinenare a concept that is very important when you calculate the length in degrees of the injection by first converting in degrees per minute, then in degrees per second you are neglecting the first that the motion of the piston is not ? linear but bens? sine, in accordance with the speed? and the acceleration of the piston depends on the mass of the crank mechanism and its geometry or stroke bore size of the piston rod within the crank etc.. usually in the edc15 ignoring all of us? there are about 9-10 degrees of difference between the duration of the injection angle for the same flow rate...

[munro]

no jack I don't follow...if you do not know how long the injection how do you calculate how long it needs to stay open the injector to inject 70mm3 knowing that the injection part 20? before tdc??
can post some formula if you want??
then I really do not know the flow rates of the pump and the injectors of the car and of the common rail.

[cicciogsr]

the formula is ready there will not be d? why? then end the discussion without posting results of tests and why? according to me ? too ridutiva and not very effective ... instead of reasoned alone.. I have already? written all over and I think I was clear..

[cicciogsr]

what car do you have?

[cicciogsr]

if ? a common rail try to mod the advance, as I said, in proportion to the iq that you want to achieve, following the logic of the ecu and post the results of your tests also accompanied by a log made with the diagnosis...

[munro]

ciccio the fact ? I have not figured out how to moddare the deposit based on the iq....because, however, the advance, and only the point from the beginning of the injection, but doesn't say anything to me, because the one that counts and the duration to inject a certain iq...

[cicciogsr]

here, then, we decide how much fuel to inject change the times and, consequently, the advance, keeping the parallelism with the original, I exposed how I feel now, try to do so, and verification of the diagnosis that the ecu takes the values that you have set.. only cos? you can realize..

[cicciogsr]

if to inject tot diesel it takes certain amount of time, with so many degrees of advance by changing the flow rate you have to adapt to the other in proportion now you have everything in the map golds to get the links..

[munro]

you say you to es divide the 70mm3 for the 20? degrees of advance practically we 70/20=3,5mm3 for instance?that every 3,5mm3 of diesel I have to increase a degree of the advance? on, I believe, you reduce everything to this simple calculation, elementary...

[bart]

I'm reminded of sottolinenare a very important concept when calculating the length in degrees of the injection by first converting degrees to minutes, or in degrees per second, you are neglecting the first that the motion of the piston is not ? linear but bens? sine, according to the speed? and the acceleration of the piston depends on the mass of the crank mechanism and its geometry, i.e. stroke bore size of the rod radius of the crank etc..

Hello cicciogsr, up to here I fully agree with you!



usually in edc15 ignoring all of us? there are about 9-10 degrees of difference between duration of injection and the angle of the beginning for the same flow rate...

[cicciogsr]

for example, to dispose of 10 mm^3 in ir? in theory you need about 2.5 degrees in pi? in advance. the calculation of v? made for all of the rpm at which you change..

[cicciogsr]

? only a theoretical evaluation to understand the relationship between the capacity and the advance

[Chris156]

but that aspect ratio or nonsense various??? the advances are to be the mod with the policy, and as mentioned in the past, you must know how to touch them.. if one touches the advances should know what to expect.. can you ? the state also posted a document with valuable attesting to everything I say..
unfortunately, lately, I can't follow so much the forum..but I can give a quick read on what to write.

[cicciogsr]

but that aspect ratio or nonsense various??? the advances are to be the mod with the policy, and as mentioned in the past, you must know how to touch them.. if one touches the advances should know what to expect.. can you ? the state also posted a document with valuable attesting to everything I say..
unfortunately, lately, I can't follow so much the forum..but I can give a quick read on what to write.

ok how would you evaluate the advance for inettare instead of 70 mm 80 mm? before I talked about the relationship between iq and advance to understand how they are related in the map ori... I know that can be an ineffective method? d? a basic idea of the data that is read in the map... then many other factors according to which that increase is not allowed? go well, and then needs to be calibrated on the basis of the measurements in order to understand if the increase ? effective ... I was always of the opinion not to touch them ? I have also written...

[munro]

guys for? if you continue to remain vague, this tread will become the biblical and at the same time you do not understand? how, where and with which policy change that advances....
in the speech f? ciccio then on the correlation between quantity ? advance injection of diesel to fit in a certain length of time find it very pertitente but without specific indications of the case and how to speak of the more or less...
ergo you will never no...

[cicciogsr]

I tried to give you an idea of how to find a method that is appropriate modification, only by tying two sizes...

[cicciogsr]

since you do not want to make any test for me we can close here

[munro]

obviously everyone knows how to do it ,to me, to change this parameter....

[cicciogsr]

I was expecting that some other person to intervene

[magi1984]

obviously everyone knows how to do it ,to me, to change this parameter....

you are not alone, and I am not s?...and just to avoid to step in and write crap I'm quiet and I read in silence

[munro]

but ciccio tired to write always with the usual wants more participation...and how he's wrong....

[megamind]

but ciccio tired to write always with the usual wants more participation...and how he's wrong....
Guys I am very interested in this topic,
on my ecu I have given 1? in the ir?. Little stuff, but the machine ? unnerved and ? sensitive the change.
For? I don't know how to help why? I just did a test, without any great reasoning, I went to intuition.
I am not a professional, and then I only have a little experience on my machine.

[magi1984]

a degree in ir? means the 5% increase?
and in that point of the map have given it?on the whole map, or only at high rpm?just to see

[munro]

Guys I am very interested in this topic,
on my ecu I have given 1? in the ir?. Little stuff, but the machine ? unnerved and ? sensitive the change.
For? I don't know how to help why? I just did a test, without any great reasoning, I went to intuition.
I am not a professional, and then I only have a little experience on my machine.
all f? broth....each with her she brings her experience and explains the topic...
P. S:even I am a professional.....indeed....for? I say my right or wrong that is, nobody would lynch if I say something inaccurate..and without the other does not linciano, not even to yourself or others if you write things that are not exactly perfect...

[cicciogsr]

I don't get tired but I'd like to talk with someone who says they know how to change.. to evaluate if my ragionamente pu? be pi? or less right..

[munro]

perhaps chris156 the s?...for? perhaps c'? the dir? pulling into the dance of the metaphors inconprensibili....type elevators, and floors of a building imaginary....no offense chris!!!

[cicciogsr]

the modification of the advance payments not ? one thing of the other world.. you have to understand what is expected of editing in the document that you posted there are written effects...I want to make it clear that the change in v? in its globalit?..to reach a goal that may be to inject more? diesel at full load or medium load.. before you fixed the purpose, and then you see how to achieve it through the proper measurements..

[cicciogsr]

then after some of my research, I can tell you that most of the people who change d? increases feeling based on experiences.. only the designers of the engine know how to the advance required to comply with certain parameters, and I can assure you that in the first place metteno emissions and fuel consumption..and are calibrated with a side of variables just as negligible as the flow rate, the hysteresis of the egr, turbo pressure... etc..

[munro]

I can bring my experience on the injection pumps mechanical timing advance centrifugal antipas, the start of injection and rpm increases....this system does not allow a calibration as the modern diesel engines with electronic, and then when you do a nice p? of diesel to not have high smoke; hence, and the temperature of the egt is very high advance physically to the injection pump by a few degrees only, that being the system to change fixed to a minimum I feel the engine beat, while at high speeds, this not happens and I get as far as wanted, i.e. lower smoke; hence, and egt in the norm now and the fact that with an ecu wishing we could play with the advance payments, for making a engine that we want to...the problem is in the get them and try,and try again, maybe better on a test bench,until the result does not satisfy us for? in this, according to me, mathematics is cipu? help for the less not to go crazy when you bring furi road with evidence of the bad practice..cio? if in a given engine the builder decreed that for brucire tot diesel we want tot advance why can't we use a p? his work calcolandoci the road from percorerre?

[cicciogsr]

? what I wanted to point out before... find the link to have a basis from which to test the performance of the edit.. but you have to consider that with your method solve the problem on cars that have less complications I am referring to egr and multiple injection electronic control of the turbo or am I wrong?

[cicciogsr]

and anyway, doesn't it ? having said that anticipate decreases the egt on a new engine why? increases the pressure in the chamber...

[Chris156]

damn you..I don't do metaphors so much for!!!! ? to understand..will be strange but ? the best way to learn!!!
We should start from the beginning of a diesel engine to understand the change of advances, but seen the document ? was posted there ? no more need because it makes skip a lot of steps.. the speech is reduced to the core ? that us on the basis of a "different elements " we have a point where you start the combustion event.. if you various one of these "elements", advances the start of combustion..
let's see if now ? the most simple!!!

[munro]

? what I wanted to point out before... find the link to have a basis from which to test the performance of the edit.. but you have to consider that with your method solve the problem on cars that have less complications I am referring to egr and multiple injection electronic control of the turbo or am I wrong?
no you are not wrong most of the times these changes are not just on cars but on trucks or tractors...most trucks, especially Scania or Iveco....if you feel that some truck "bombardone" and that "sfumacchia" a p? signed Fg or BA most likely there I've put my hands I...

[munro]

damn you..I don't do metaphors so much for!!!! ? to understand..will be strange but ? the best way to learn!!!
We should start from the beginning of a diesel engine to understand the change of advances, but seen the document ? was posted there ? no more need because it makes skip a lot of steps.. the speech is reduced to the core ? that us on the basis of a "different elements " we have a point where you start the combustion event.. if you various one of these "elements", advances the start of combustion..
let's see if now ? the most simple!!!
Hello Metaphorical!!ahahahahah..... can you be more specific? to "change" are you referring to in particular??

[Chris156]

I knew!!!! the elements of change are those on which smanetti in the map!!!

[munro]

seee......good nootte!! vaglioo never change...ahahahahah....

[Chris156]

in January I am in puglia to stay with the family and you do it to better understand!!!! joke!!!! ;)
the magical elements are, first and foremost the turbo and then to follow the others..

[Chris156]

you disappeared??? ? hard to understand???

[cicciogsr]

when it starts the injection is not ? said to start the combustion of the mass of fuel that is entering the room, the combustion occurs after the injection of the two phases are staggered at a certain time, i.e. the time necassiorio to be some physical phenomena that I, this time difference ? the delay that c'? between the start of injection and start of combustion, the delay depends on many factors, and I quote the most? important afr, intake manifold pressure, exhaust gas recirculation, quality? of air and fuel.. etc...then it seems to me now to understand that to adjust the timing advance, for our purposes ? ... reflect on two things, turbo pressure, and exhaust gas recirculation... what do you think of us? that I wrote... I continue to reiterate that it is still an opinion, concrete someone that amendment advances not c'?..

[munro]

you disappeared??? ? hard to understand???
I will? absent-minded l? s?...for this not responded to the rear*****s, the turbo will be also an element of change but the fact remains that the main suspect of this whole diatribe ?ra,?,and rester? the diesel!!according to me you can give all the air out of the turbo that you want, together with the diesel but if you do not adjust the time duration of the total injection through the beginning and the end of this that you calcolada when it starts to when it ends we are always there to talk about more or less...according to me....then if you come in Puglia, Chris, you do the taste nu bell capiton!!!ahahahah

[cicciogsr]

to inject more? diesel via ir? utulizzata and also discussed ? to lengthen the duration of the injection to make it burn, you can adjust the right air flow rate to adjust the afr and advance up to a certain point pu? stay gold why? pu? enough for the amount? acceptable pu? give already? pi? performance... if you do not smoke means that it does not c'? production eye-catching of unburned then not c'? reason of forcing the ecu to start injecting before tdc even why? if you do it too burning the pu? begin before the piston is in the position that minimizes the volume in which you generer? the pressure...probably not fighting for? you lose power and ? what happens to you in tractors ( p.s. I like tractors) or in the trucks being able to act only on the pump (diesel-advance), you can't take advantage of other variables that there are in modern engines such as, for example, you can't vary the injection pressure or adjust the turbo... then you don't have egr .. right?

[Chris156]

please note that the combustion does not begin with the injection.. but everything happens at certain degrees before tdc... this happens to build up positive force of "thrust"..

munro when you play with the tractor or the truck push the turbo? (the last I see on tractors!!!!) :cool:
Ps: I will port na' beautiful sasizz!!!!

[munro]

egr on trucks and tractors of any year f? there was still....but why? he says that the egr affects the well as listing of resources advances?
why steals oxygen for combustion?therefore, it changes the primary parameter for the beginning of the injection? I, however, I do not consider it in this discussion because I pressuposto that if one modified his file to the ecu, the first thing he f? ? quelladi delete via sw that valve zozzona....:p

[munro]

please note that the combustion does not begin with the injection.. but everything happens at certain degrees before tdc... this happens to build up positive force of "thrust"..

munro when you play with the tractor or the truck push the turbo? (the last I see on tractors!!!!) :cool:
Ps: I will port na' beautiful sasizz!!!!
on some camio or tractors older that are not equipped with a wastegate just raise the fuel-to "bounce" also increases press turbo....and, indeed, when not to adapt the advances in all the diesel fuel pilot that arrives in the turbine the f? accelerate even more? bringing the pressure to the stars and ? mainly from them that I realize that the engine wants more advance..... while for tractors and trucks, the most recent now on they have started to mount the turbine a p? more small, but with the wastegate to have an engine more coppioso down.....
by chris when you come I'll make you taste unaspecialit? foggia.....Sbarrone vinegar.....ahahahah.... you'll see that good!! ahahahahahah....

[Chris156]

damn!!!!! hahahaha..
the egr ? perfect to understand what I say..just that the ecu is turned off by 3000 rpm in about... we need to know why? after the 3500 if advances walls..

[cicciogsr]

if the combustion with the egr active ? calibrated cos? from costuttore to make in any case ... given that the recirculation discriminate the combustion first, what the f? lower the temperature and then the combustion ? pi? slow means that must start before the injection to burn them all... from there? I could say that off the circulation I would have a temperature in the pi? high then cobustione improved, which allows me to take advantage of the advance ori why? I have the advantage of temperature and quantity? oxygen then can I throw in pi? fuel...there? the associate to a better pressure of the fuel and of the air... and if you do not exaggerate, I would not have the problems of egt or pressure turbo why? if you set it well, and consider also the bounce you're within a pressure that does not wear out too quickly the turbo... if you want to give heavy flow l? you that you have to put the hand to advance, and think always of the same policy... advance to inject the first to begin to burn first, and then all....

chris what you have written, I had already expressed in detail in the post 101

[cicciogsr]

in post 103 c'? written well as why? the walls... maybe don't read there? I'm writing... ahhh.ahhhh

[munro]

ciccio but leaving for a moment by the egr which I sincerely nun me to fuck you just for the address of elimination we can make an equivalence between diesel fuel injected and advance always coming back to the speech that was to create a basis of approximate calculation?? otherwise I don't understand nothing...
pooi I even have to dodge the sasizzate of that damn as I write this, not so much me st? by applying....ahahahahah

[cicciogsr]

[QUOTE=munro;17122]ciccio but leaving for a moment by the egr which I sincerely nun me to fuck you just for the address of elimination we can make an equivalence between diesel fuel injected and advance always coming back to the speech that was to create a basis of approximate calculation?? otherwise I don't understand nothing...

look at the owers, and in the light of what we have said currency how much in advance does it take to reach that injects gold and you need the diagnosis so? you have the comparison with the values in the maps, and l? if you touch a parameter update, the other taking into account there? that you have encountered before.. what do you think of the idea?

[munro]

there? understand anything....I'm sorry, could you explain it more down-to-earth??

[cicciogsr]

not ? can ? the millionth time I do a log with the deal? diesel and advance, and other things if you want to figure out the ecu as the st? by executing the orders given.. don't expect formulas to apply, but only to reason in reverse, who designed

[Chris156]

I have read!!! for this I write!!! I'll give you a drastic solution to make the diesel a lot more to high.. raise your head!!! let's see if you get there now.

[munro]

total darkness....

[Chris156]

here ? total panic!!!!! hahahahaha... you should have understood a little bit.. I have to do one of my examples ???

[munro]

if you tell me to raise my head..I understand of ridurreil compression ratio....but I don't understand the connection, sincerely...

[Chris156]

after the huge success of the example of the house, today we turn to the example of the child and the balloon!!! c'? a 5 years old child that inflates a balloon and after 20 insuflazioni air blows up the balloon ... then the child grows up and comes to 20 years (and since not ? born in taranto and has the lungs healthy), blow up a balloon and after 15 insuflazioni blows up the balloon..
Now, are you in there?

Ps: also, if I am away from my birthplace, I am always very near to the mind, and I have to say that they are going on too many things..hopefully everything will work out soon.

[munro]

but what have I done wrong to deserve this???what does m? the head with the baby that inflates the balloons???
guys I do not understand and are two things or I am totally rincretinito and I do not understand is more deserving
or you as a teacher do to actually go to the body.....
I, for one? optrei more for the second reason..... not s? why?...always no offense eee...
joking...but I don't know equally what you want to tell me....

[cicciogsr]

pi? air f? explode before the balloon so you can tare pi? diesel ahhh ahhh if you don't want to burst you have to blow slowly... I am on the side of those who think that if we blow you off, but the burning of pi?...

[munro]

give up your mind ? too convoluted.....I recommend a specialist......but from a vet?.....you're two horse-crazy!!!

[Chris156]

no one who understands my examples??????? hehehehe..

then you explain it better.. the fuel starts to burn at a specific pressure in the cylinder.. in original condition reflects what is established by the manufacturer..
for example, to 4000 rpm with tot prex rail and tot bar of turbo, etc ..all this make? so that, for example, 5 degrees before tdc starts the combustion..
The thing that you need to understand about the examples that I have done (raise the head - child that inflates the balloon)? this!!!
Now there 6?

[cicciogsr]

and ends thirty degrees in the morning?

[Chris156]

nooo... :rolleyes:

[cicciogsr]

the file that I posted I the injection lasts 30? to 70 sq mm and the advance ? of 20 degrees for the same amount?.. eye 30 to which I am not ? advance..

[megamind]

a degree in ir? means the 5% increase?
and in that point of the map have given it?on the whole map, or only at high rpm?just to see

Watch I am attaching the screenshot cos? it is easy to understand.
Are 2? in relation to the values that I have on my table + 6,48%.
But them I stopped because? I saw that the limiter of the advance ? set to 40?.
Then, having made a slight modification I would not. remained in tolerance
Even if ? very little I felt the car the most? the nervous system, and even more? noisy.
The increases I always try to follow the original in a progressive way.
I put a screen of winols of the ori why? the axes on the ecm are wrong.

[cicciogsr]

the two degrees on the basis of what you have calculated?

[Chris156]

take care to give degrees to.....

[megamind]

I have not done that calculation, I lifted the times up to 7%, and knowing that the limiter is at 40 degrees I raised the advances. Following the ori. But I am the beginning and I did this test because I think that when you do a mod. Increases or decreases in all of the maps that are in the report. For me it is difficult to think that the person who made the original map I did wrong. Then I try to raise following the set in the set where I need it.

[cicciogsr]

I have not done that calculation, I lifted the times up to 7%, and knowing that the limiter is at 40 degrees I raised the advances. Following the ori. But I am the beginning and I did this test because I think that when you do a mod. Increases or decreases in all of the maps that are in the report. For me it is difficult to think that the person who made the original map I did wrong. Then I try to raise following the set in the set where I need it.

as the beginning of v? well to understand how it all works.. and according to me, you'll realize that the advance arrived at a certain point, you do not need to touch it..

[savek]

I support my thesis cio? if you just leave them original

[munro]

guys who's? the formula to calculate, or better to convert the microseconds in degrees crankshaft?
let me explain, if I have for example an injector which opens to 594 microseconds how can I quantify how many degrees of rotation the motor match?

[franco75]

Degrees=rev/min*6*T
Es: 584 µsec at 3000 rpm
Degrees = 3000*6*584/1000000 = 10.5 degrees

[cicciogsr]

bravo ? right.. we get cos?...rpm*360=(grad/min)/60000000=(grad/ms)*.t(ms)=degrees

maybe ? pi? simple to understand

[munro]

thank you frank...I know cos? that T=1000000?? evisto you're at it, can you explain to me a moment, this formula??
Thanks

[munro]

bravo ? right.. we get cos?...rpm*360=(grad/min)/60000000=(grad/ms)*.t(ms)=degrees

maybe ? pi? simple to understand
ciccio cos? the.t?

[cicciogsr]

the time to insert it in the formula

[munro]

I am, however, a half-idea I made also on the basis of you have injection times and the cio? if at 4000 rpm I have a time of injection
of 795us to know how long the degree opens the injector to do this calculation 4000X360?degrees=1440000 these are the degrees in a minute in a second I to do? 1440000/60=24000 degrees per second now in order to know how many degrees do? the motor according to the injection time lighthouse 24000/795=30? degrees... what about pu? be feasible?
but this calculation and trusted??

[cicciogsr]

to the eye, and the cross, it seems to me.. are there more? 10 degrees error

[franco75]

thank you frank...I know cos? that T=1000000?? evisto you're at it, can you explain to me a moment, this formula??
Thanks
I divide by 1000000 if I put the time in microseconds

[franco75]

I'm not good with explanations, but I try:
divide the rpm by 60 to get revolutions per second, and then multiplied by 360 to get the degrees aal second, then divide by 60 and multiply by 360 ?
how to multiply to 6.
had any of the degrees / second multiply by the seconds, and get the degrees.
In the case of the example of mcjtd, or 795 us to 4000 g/m is the duration ? 19?

[Chris156]

I'm not good with explanations, but I try:
divide the rpm by 60 to get revolutions per second, and then multiplied by 360 to get the degrees aal second, then divide by 60 and multiply by 360 ?
how to multiply to 6.
had any of the degrees / second multiply by the seconds, and get the degrees.
In the case of the example of mcjtd, or 795 us to 4000 g/m is the duration ? 19?

[munro]

ok understood, thanks...now let's put the case that we,also, depending on the file posted by ciccio of jtd 105,we have the greatest tinj that ? of 1151us and we have to 1350 bar to press an iq of 70mm3 at 4000 rpm with the maximum advance that ? 21?..ok?
then, the calculation and 4000*6*1151/1000000=27,6 degrees of duration of injection, and as this begins to 21 degrees ppms end to 6.6 degrees dpms....
now assuming that I want to inject 85mm3 to? (radiceq of 1350*1151)/70=604 then 604*85/radiceq 1350=1397us
and then the new duration of injection in degrees sar? 4000*6*1397/1000000=33,5 degrees if I rest with the beginning of the injection to 21? in this case, inquire to inject 12.5? dpms that ? twice as much as expected, the manufacturer then surely I'll fumosit? temperatures and egt to the stars...and then if I wanted to return this value in the standard, I have to anticipate a p? the injection back in my "time window" and return to the 6? in most of the dpms to the ppms also to comply with the percentage of injection of 76/24% based on the pms that mom fiat has decided...

[dvdtuning]

Then you should give 6? of advance?

[munro]

if I want to respect the percentage of injection between before and after tdc, but I believe that you can get off at a rate of 50/50....

[cicciogsr]

6 degrees are so many for me? if you consider the contribution of the turbo for that p? that salt you have to get down

[munro]

you may also be able to? with 12.5? dpms the car to them "digest"... all pu? be...
cos? that even 6? ppms,even if it may sound like a lot,maybe the engine is not "bat an eyelid"....

[Chris156]

the engine digests them easily or almost..but the problem ? that if we were in a perfect world it would be enough to anticipate of 6? and everything would be ok..but no..
the response I have written a post ago.

[munro]

it would be interesting to know the distribution diagram of the fiat 105 jtd to know precisely how many degrees opens the exhaust valve in this way,according to me,you may continue to inject even after the tdc until the exhaust valve and closed and after this open stop to inject to not finish inettare in the exhaust....

[Chris156]

it would be interesting to know the distribution diagram of the fiat 105 jtd to know precisely how many degrees opens the exhaust valve in this way,according to me,you may continue to inject even after the tdc until the exhaust valve and closed and after this open stop to inject to not finish inettare in the exhaust....

it would be diesel only wasted unnecessarily.

[munro]

I will say no....according to me nothing is wasted because since when the valve is closed, and you continue to inject in the mass of air and fuel that is burning,already triggered before tdc, and long before the pilot injection, we obtain an increase of the heat and especially the pressure inside the cylinder when the piston st? descending in the stage useful to say this means more pressure on the piston= more torque, ergo more power...
also in the post where calcolavo the advance I forgot to accenare a fact according to me very important to the cio? the pilot injection...
if we put the case with the advance of the main injection, which was 21? we had a pilot injection that preceded this 15? if we anticipate only the main we are going to "accavalarci" the pilot then according to me it would not be affato a bad idea to give the advance of the pilot injection, leaving traquesta and that in the main the same time in degrees that the manufacturer has provided, but "translating everything in advance"

[Chris156]

remember that after a certain number of rounds, the pre-inj not ? the most active.
for the speech to lengthen the injection after the tdc goes well.. but after a certain number of degrees do not need anymore to anything..
you can take as an example a motor in a regeneration phase..

[munro]

but the regeneration of the f? why deliberately injects diesel fuel outside of the combustion chamber...to the point of the post-combustion chamber with the exhaust valve open "charge" of diesel seeds the unburned gas column that st? leaving the engine and then to the end of this burning diesel fuel within the diesel particulate filter to raise the temperature of this and burn all of the particulate matter accumulated in the...what is that ? all diesel fuel wasted....

[cicciogsr]

in previous posts I was with the reasoning of exploit the post-combustion chamber, in the limit of fumosit?
in the jtd the preiniezione ends at about 2800 rpm then starts the main in the mjet ? different there are also 5 injections over the pre

[munro]

certain that to be able to change the combustion cycle of the multijet to adapt it to our needs, for me it would be a step forward by leaps and bounds.for? there I s? that takes knowledge out of the norm and approciarsi to this fundamental parameter of the diesel with engineering mind with the tools of graphic simulation and calculation powerful that the simple enthusiast, I believe, does not have...who knows if we will one day you iscrivesse a development engineer diesel engines of any manufacturer award-winning, and is willing to share his "technical" with us in order to get the most out of this topic.....it would be legendary...

[cicciogsr]

certain that to be able to change the combustion cycle of the multijet to adapt it to our needs, for me it would be a step forward by leaps and bounds.for? there I s? that takes knowledge out of the norm and approciarsi to this fundamental parameter of the diesel with engineering mind with the tools of graphic simulation and calculation powerful that the simple enthusiast, I believe, does not have...who knows if we will one day you iscrivesse a development engineer diesel engines of any manufacturer award-winning, and is willing to share his "technical" with us in order to get the most out of this topic.....it would be legendary...

with an engineer there and you're talking to? unfortunately, reluctantly, I do not work at bosch... the plan the plan if you realize you're supporting my speech that no measurements here, we can talk endlessly why? the values in the map in diagnosis is not always you will find my advice was to learn to work without advance up to certain capacities the performance come out the same I tell you but of course if you are of the mechanical changes and you want to overdo it then you have to get them to change..

[Chris156]

mmmmmm.. then when a car goes into regeneration should have 50 hp more!!!!! :rolleyes:

[cicciogsr]

post inizioni there fraga nothing maps that governs the advance in regeneration I don't think you should touch

[dott.chem]

My humble opinion on the matter ? the following:
The advances are to be change in some circumstances. Should be done with the policy, knowing how, knowing why? and knowing what you can? go into the meeting.

I assume that if I want to get powers not monstrous, then reliability, the quantity? of diesel fuel to give and the amount? air to give (therefore pressure) ? modest.
Perhaps a practical example the speech is pi? simple for everyone.
A tdi 160 with 70mg of diesel delivers in theory 190cv to 4000 rpm. Because of the obvious loss of performance as you increase the power, these horses become almost 185 to 4000 rpm with pressure 1.49bar (original pressure detected with the diagnosis).
Power data (rolled) reflect what is obtained with the calculations before you map the drive, there? ? the index that the accounts have been properly made and that everything on the car is working.

You note a p? smoke in certain regimes (predictable in the mapping phase). The problem arises from the fact that for injection 70mg, is injected, typically 8? ATDC, with peaks of 11?.
Despite an AFR of about 15.5 the car smokes why? the diesel fuel ? injected too over the top dead point 8 - 10? the limit for the smoke; hence on many engines on the tdi about 10?.
The smoke does not ? of those exaggerated, you could keep everything cos?, but if you want to fix that?

Or you increase the pressure, or by the advance.
If the pressure does not want to change, is anticipated.
How much? The advance the you can? calculate starting from the original maps. From these, you must extract the required value of the quantity? injection that you are interested in.
To do this, just a p? ingenuity and an EXCEL spreadsheet.
In my case the calculated value ? the state of about 1.25 degrees to 4000g/min. little stuff, but enough to reduce the smoke. now ****lli pi? that acceptable

Change the advance of the injection ? risky. The increase of pressure in the inside of the cylinder ? distributed, but localized in a short time, during ascent of the piston. If the increases are slight, there are no problems, picked with pressure turbo original or low.
In other conditions, you may have an overheating of the engine, cracks in the cylinder head and the piston head, the stress important for the flywheel and the crankshaft.
For quantity? injected very high (a lot) if the values of advance required from the calculations are high, it means that you should change your strategy. You go to the injectors with nozzles increased. In that case, them you can? leave the original, postpone or very, very cautiously anticipate, depending on the size of the holes of the nozzles.
In the case of pressure the turbo is very high with intercooler series, the matter is complicated because of the high temperature of the charge placed in the cylinder and the pressures pi? high.

As I see it, do the logs of the car with the original map and after the map changed ? fundamental.

[cicciogsr]

My humble opinion on the matter ? the following:
The advances are to be change in some circumstances. Should be done with the policy, knowing how, knowing why? and knowing what you can? go into the meeting.

I assume that if I want to get powers not monstrous, then reliability, the quantity? of diesel fuel to give and the amount? air to give (therefore pressure) ? modest.
Perhaps a practical example the speech is pi? simple for everyone.
A tdi 160 with 70mg of diesel delivers in theory 190cv to 4000 rpm. Because of the obvious loss of performance as you increase the power, these horses become almost 185 to 4000 rpm with pressure 1.49bar (original pressure detected with the diagnosis).
Power data (rolled) reflect what is obtained with the calculations before you map the drive, there? ? the index that the accounts have been properly made and that everything on the car is working.

You note a p? smoke in certain regimes (predictable in the mapping phase). The problem arises from the fact that for injection 70mg, is injected, typically 8? ATDC, with peaks of 11?.
Despite an AFR of about 15.5 the car smokes why? the diesel fuel ? injected too over the top dead point 8 - 10? the limit for the smoke; hence on many engines on the tdi about 10?.
The smoke does not ? of those exaggerated, you could keep everything cos?, but if you want to fix that?

Or you increase the pressure, or by the advance.
If the pressure does not want to change, is anticipated.
How much? The advance the you can? calculate starting from the original maps. From these, you must extract the required value of the quantity? injection that you are interested in.
To do this, just a p? ingenuity and an EXCEL spreadsheet.
In my case the calculated value ? the state of about 1.25 degrees to 4000g/min. little stuff, but enough to reduce the smoke. now ****lli pi? that acceptable

Change the advance of the injection ? risky. The increase of pressure in the inside of the cylinder ? distributed, but localized in a short time, during ascent of the piston. If the increases are slight, there are no problems, picked with pressure turbo original or low.
In other conditions, you may have an overheating of the engine, cracks in the cylinder head and the piston head, the stress important for the flywheel and the crankshaft.
For quantity? injected very high (a lot) if the values of advance required from the calculations are high, it means that you should change your strategy. You go to the injectors with nozzles increased. In that case, them you can? leave the original, postpone or very, very cautiously anticipate, depending on the size of the holes of the nozzles.
In the case of pressure the turbo is very high with intercooler series, the matter is complicated because of the high temperature of the charge placed in the cylinder and the pressures pi? high.

As I see it, do the logs of the car with the original map and after the map changed ? fundamental.




fully in line with my thinking of what I emphasize that from the first post that you need to verify the parameters ori with the diagnosis..

[bart]

My humble opinion on the matter ? the following:
The advances are to be change in some circumstances. Should be done with the policy, knowing how, knowing why? and knowing what you can? go into the meeting.

I assume that if I want to get powers not monstrous, then reliability, the quantity? of diesel fuel to give and the amount? air to give (therefore pressure) ? modest.
Perhaps a practical example the speech is pi? simple for everyone.
A tdi 160 with 70mg of diesel delivers in theory 190cv to 4000 rpm. Because of the obvious loss of performance as you increase the power, these horses become almost 185 to 4000 rpm with pressure 1.49bar (original pressure detected with the diagnosis).
Power data (rolled) reflect what is obtained with the calculations before you map the drive, there? ? the index that the accounts have been properly made and that everything on the car is working.

You note a p? smoke in certain regimes (predictable in the mapping phase). The problem arises from the fact that for injection 70mg, is injected, typically 8? ATDC, with peaks of 11?.
Despite an AFR of about 15.5 the car smokes why? the diesel fuel ? injected too over the top dead point 8 - 10? the limit for the smoke; hence on many engines on the tdi about 10?.
The smoke does not ? of those exaggerated, you could keep everything cos?, but if you want to fix that?

Or you increase the pressure, or by the advance.
If the pressure does not want to change, is anticipated.
How much? The advance the you can? calculate starting from the original maps. From these, you must extract the required value of the quantity? injection that you are interested in.
To do this, just a p? ingenuity and an EXCEL spreadsheet.
In my case the calculated value ? the state of about 1.25 degrees to 4000g/min. little stuff, but enough to reduce the smoke. now ****lli pi? that acceptable

Change the advance of the injection ? risky. The increase of pressure in the inside of the cylinder ? distributed, but localized in a short time, during ascent of the piston. If the increases are slight, there are no problems, picked with pressure turbo original or low.
In other conditions, you may have an overheating of the engine, cracks in the cylinder head and the piston head, the stress important for the flywheel and the crankshaft.
For quantity? injected very high (a lot) if the values of advance required from the calculations are high, it means that you should change your strategy. You go to the injectors with nozzles increased. In that case, them you can? leave the original, postpone or very, very cautiously anticipate, depending on the size of the holes of the nozzles.
In the case of pressure the turbo is very high with intercooler series, the matter is complicated because of the high temperature of the charge placed in the cylinder and the pressures pi? high.

As I see it, do the logs of the car with the original map and after the map changed ? fundamental.



dr. chem ? your second message that I read today and this time I totally agree with you: exactly the same conclusions which I had arrived myself, but I have yet been able to test, and then verify...
We are totally in tune: I know that we have done studies and professional experiences similar... ;)

[munro]

*dr. chem:hello doc could you kindly explain why you say that is the limit to inject 10? after the pms??theoretically,for what it s? I could continue to inject,and the increase pme in the cylinder,until you open the exhaust valve....for example, in the jtd 115 with the axis cams are colombo &bariani opens to 56? the first of the smes in practice 180? from smes to less than 56? to advance openness in comparison to this we have 124? after the tdc before the valve is open causing you to lose the pressure of the working cycle.....

[cicciogsr]

it means that up to 8-10? after the pms you can inject without anticipating and working with the air flow you can not have excessive smoke with those 8-9? falls within the tolerance of the propagation of the flame front in a cylinder volume that this time will be? greater than when the beginning of the injection, and with an appropriate pressure of air to burn almost all of the mixture...

[dott.chem]

It is a problem of kinetic type.
The diesel ? slow to burn. By injecting up to 10 degrees (approximately, varies from motor to motor) does not have the time to burn during the phase of the useful and ends to get to the exhaust manifold and the snail of the turbine during the combustion phase. There? causes an increase of EGT and particulate matter.
The phenomenon is reduced by using large excesses of air, of course. With low-pressure turbo-high, often this limit is a little less.
The camshafts increase the volumetric efficiency, as a result ? as if you're using pressure turbo more? high (not ? just cos? but you get the idea)

[cicciogsr]

changing the camshaft changes the volumetric efficiency why? change the timing of opening of the valves with a result of better and more filling the room... for the best I mean the speed? with which it fills the second what if ? well done best the intersection of valve you can empty the room first, and then fills the first and the fresh mixture, that you will have to? turn on is a room completely devoid of gas, with a few residues of unburnt and well as ir? the cool thing not to be underestimated

[munro]

It is a problem of kinetic type.
The diesel ? slow to burn. By injecting up to 10 degrees (approximately, varies from motor to motor) does not have the time to burn during the phase of the useful and ends to get to the exhaust manifold and the snail of the turbine during the combustion phase. There? causes an increase of EGT and particulate matter.
The phenomenon is reduced by using large excesses of air, of course. With low-pressure turbo-high, often this limit is a little less.
The camshafts increase the volumetric efficiency, as a result ? as if you're using pressure turbo more? high (not ? just cos? but you get the idea)
ok...putting a moment by the volumetric efficiency data from a certain type of cam, or pressure turbo etc and taking into consideration only the thermal cycle of a given engine and thus the pme that derives from it...my question ?:from when is the beginning of the injection of the diesel fuel, the intake valves have been closed already, such a beautiful piece,as well as the exhaust,and that air under pressure ? managed to enter in the cylinder ? the entrance to stop...then in the cylinder c'? a certain amount of pressure at the end of the compression phase of sara has also been increased in the heat ok?.. then in this condition ? match the combustion and we say "while" the piston passes the tdc..... what I did not go back ?=why? in the cylinder can not continue to inject diesel fuel into the mass which already is burning with a temperature and pressure much higher stage of compression to verebbe "interotta" only until the exhaust valve decides to open up??cinematicamente talking about the doc,why? by injecting 10?after the pms you should have more egt and smoke when it seems clear that the exhaust valve ? still closed, and all the heat and the pressure ? still trapped in the cylinder and pressed with a force unheard of on the piston??

[cicciogsr]

if you re-read everything from scratch I have also explained how the combustion of the diesel... looking for info on the combustion of the diesel, especially on the spread and maybe you put a lot of doubt

[cicciogsr]

in mjet the injections are multiple, in fact, you inject diesel in different times even when the combustion ? started

[munro]

if you allow me I would like to hear those who waste 2 words to try to understand us poor ingnoranti difficult concepts....and I am referring to dr. chem that as from his previous posts, evidently "waste" a few words to make it understandable concepts...translated and no offense...ciccio you're a great guy and an engineer titrated but to explain things you are a kiavika!!!forgive me!!
I believe that the combustion of the diesel the including and my questions are specifichea which I would like specific answers if you also don't want to give in this case I would like to ask you to avoid beating around the bush with useless wordplays....do not return to say and do the same things....come on!! a p? in a practical sense we want to!! the Doc sort of said what she thought without getting many saws mental!! why don't you adapt you or if that's just do you find it difficult from there? why do not you abstain to continue to "fight the can to the air??"

[dott.chem]

The process of combustion of any fuel with the oxidizer (in this case fuel and air) ? a chemical reaction.
The chemical reactions, all of which have a speed? typical that depends on several things.
Furthermore, the temperature and the pressure govern, in part, the thermodynamics of the combustion process.
In the specific case, an increase in pressure does not play in favour of the combustion process, at least from the thermodynamic point of view
In addition, from the point of view of kinetic phenomenon, chemical, "combustion" ? accompanied by physical phenomenon.
The drops of diesel micrometer, tend to burn from the outside, where they are in contact with oxygen, towards the inside.
Pi? ? large drop (formed from the atomization of diesel fuel) pi? time ? necessary for the flame front to reach the nucleus.
The time required ? such that, for durations of injection is very large and for high engine speeds (when the motor shaft runs through many corners in a short time) the relief valve is ? gi? open, by passing the droplets still in the process of combustion in the manifold.

[munro]

translated into layman's terms it means that if you inject after the tdc in the diesel fuel to burn,given its specifications and its combustion process,even with the exhaust valve closed and not finding enough oxygen,at this juncture,will not produce more heat and pressure?
and this is the end of the combustion on the inside of the micro particles of diesel only out of the cylinder,that is, the manifolds and the turbine, why? c'? the more air?? sorry doc, and the temperature is very high that the very first has triggered the combustion in this process,always with the discharge valve closed, and then heat and pressure are enclosed all in the cylinder,it has no influence in this thermodynamic cycle??with the post-injections,trattenedo all the heat and the press in the cylinder,in practice, we cannot "model" the thermodynamic cycle at our convenience, to try to prolong,as much as possible until it opens the exhaust valve "to break the eggs in the basket, "the phase of the useful" of the engine??

[cicciogsr]

if you care so much, I can even abstain... for duty of chronicle, and to the passion I have for the engines, the old jtd design ? called unijet means that for each ignition or combustion, or as a vuooi call are made only two injections the pilot and the main, which then in-turn are adjusted according to the load ... in the multijet to be put in the field a combustion pi? clean down the combustion phase, in parit? of diesel fuel to make it ir? slowly and gradually they have adopted the strategy of using 5 injections(including pre and post) for each combustion us? that it provides for less noise? minor production of unburned lower NOx production, etc., and above all it is introduced in the post injection, which serves to regenerate the anti-particulate

[munro]

with post injections I mean injections of diesel fuel, always with the discharge valve closed, but with the piston, which has crossed its pms.....

[munro]

if you care so much, I can even abstain... for duty of chronicle, and to the passion I have for the engines, the old jtd design ? called unijet means that for each ignition or combustion, or as a vuooi call are made only two injections the pilot and the main, which then in-turn are adjusted according to the load ... in the multijet to be put in the field a combustion pi? clean down the combustion phase, in parit? of diesel fuel to make it ir? slowly and gradually they have adopted the strategy of using 5 injections(including pre and post) for each combustion us? that it provides for less noise? minor production of unburned lower NOx production, etc., and above all it is introduced in the post injection, which serves to regenerate the anti-particulate
wibble I have not told you to refrain from posting your thoughts..don't misunderstand...I only said that if you want to do to make it the more understandable possible..considering the past of the case,between the two of us,that have led to misunderstandings...that said my friend maybe I just in this specific case, I can not understand there? that I would like to because from your responses to well-known a amusement impropia....the cio? said ground-to-ground, I say To you answer me, B, or much more likely your B and little clearly understood for my very small third media, but there? does not mean that it is not incomprehensible to others?.....now back more on the technical about to discuss purely of the thermodynamic cycle of a diesel common rail system with multiple injections,my thought about it ?:instead of having multiiniezioni to have a burning the most clean as possible why not to take advantage of this technology to get the maximum possible performance???the crux of my question ? all here!!!

[cicciogsr]

the post-injection is carried out in the latter stages of the combustion to increase the temperature of the exhaust, allowing the regeneration of the filter,the post-injection pu? also create a reducing environment required for regeneration of the catalyst with consequent reduction of the oxides of nitrogen.

[cicciogsr]

munro-I'm sorry, I don't understand pi? what do you want to know.. . if you want to open a post placed your maps, and we discuss them above with the numbers at hand... so? we are talking about the sex of the angels..

[munro]

ciccio wrote in my post a little f? what I want to know...turning,if possible,the post-injections developed to "clean diesel" in the post injections in order to have the massimapotenza available...

[munro]

said even more terraterra here I wonder if ? can create a cycle, diesel and pme we want the most powerful possible having multi injections that instead of sending diesel to the outside of the cylinder to clean a filter which is not me interssa nothing...inject es instead of one large main injection maybe "out of time", because c'? a lot of quantity? to be injected,the same lot is divided in the time-degrees engine the most optimal possible, to have the best in terms of performance...

[dott.chem]

translated into layman's terms it means that if you inject after the tdc in the diesel fuel to burn,given its specifications and its combustion process,even with the exhaust valve closed and not finding enough oxygen,at this juncture,will not produce more heat and pressure?
I hope I interpret the question.
It will produce?, but with a yield very very low, and with no contraindications, important.
The oxygen, even if in excess ? able to relieve the problem, not solve it.


and this is the end of the combustion on the inside of the micro particles of diesel only out of the cylinder,that is, the manifolds and the turbine, why? c'? the more air??
No, not why? c'? pi? air to where it was before, simply because? the "drop" exhaust in the combustion in those times.

sorry doc, and the temperature is very high that the very first triggered the combustion in this process,always with the discharge valve closed, and then heat and pressure are enclosed all in the cylinder,and has no influence on the thermodynamic cycle??
That heat, as you say, it serves to trigger the combustion process. It is one of the parameters which I wrote before, it depends on the speed? a rection. I would not want to enter too much in details, but in the specific, is changed to the factor pre-exponential of the "constant reaction kinetics".
And as if by increasing the temperature the better the trigger. But there? is worth at the beginning of the injection, while you can not improve the initiation of a reaction already? primed... don't you think?

with the post-injections,trattenedo all the heat and the press in the cylinder,in practice, we cannot "model" the thermodynamic cycle to our liking for to try to extend,as much as possible until it opens the exhaust valve "to break the eggs in the basket "phase useful" of the engine??

When the duration of injection ? very long (see the full load, and, a fortiori, for cars developed there? not ? can or maybe ? better to say that with the means at our disposal do not think it is feasible

[Chris156]

munro dott.chem you, " she repeated everything I said..
the "post-injection" you can take it only up to tot degrees..after do not need anymore to anything..just smoke and mirrors!!!

ciccio has reason..post your map and we will quietly..

[cicciogsr]

munro if you can create a loop to your liking hats off.. us poor guys here try to nibble away at the coef yet that has used the manufacturer to increase the performance..fregandocene of pollutant emissions and, many times, as well as consumption...

[munro]

That heat, as you say, it serves to trigger the combustion process. It is one of the parameters which I wrote before, it depends on the speed? a rection. I would not want to enter too much in details, but in the specific, is changed to the factor pre-exponential of the "constant reaction kinetics".
And as if by increasing the temperature the better the trigger. But there? is worth at the beginning of the injection, while you can not improve the initiation of a reaction already? primed... don't you think?
doc-I'm sorry, I don't want to break the bales but we discuss so try to understand as much as possible and all the answers you have reported this ? that the less I understand...i.e. leaving for a atimo lose the diesel engine and talking about the reaction already triggered your example that you can't? improve I immediately think of the atomic bomb..the cio? to trigger this weapon is tremendous made of plutonium and uranium,which I remember explodes in "free air", serves as a primer of tnt to start the process...bh? in this case, the tnt that triggers further cleaning procedures chain is literally "outclassed" from the plutonium in the bomb...
why this not ? you can in the engine?? the cio? for example, the americans in their drag top fuel used to mix with the methanol of the nitroglycerin from where to get the nitromethane..according to me, the methanol in this case it triggers the charge, but the nitro power just like the example of the bomb...why not ? can do the same with the diesel that once vaporized at high pressure in contact with high temperatures already triggered it will continue? to release heat and pressure?? and as if to a fire to put it as "chris" adding diesel fuel, the result would be a fire even more great and powerful of that? if it were not for the drain valve, open the "tank"(the cylinder) the engine would explode..but why not to check this explosion with the multiniezioni to have as much as said?

[Chris156]

munro I'll give you an example..after the great success of the lift and of the child with the balloon!!!!
You as a baby did you use to throw the balls of paper with the pen (biro) removed (blowpipe)... you soffiavi and the palliina started but after coming out of the pen and walked away, for example, 1 centimeter, the force of the air had the most effect on the ball.. and the air of the buttavi simply in the environment..

I know that soon I'll open up my post with all of these examples!!!! more than this, I can't explain down-to-earth..

[dott.chem]

Apart from this pleasant digression, to explain is not ? simple, and I realize that to understand can? be equally as difficult. If we add to this the fact that to explain things are not good, we are ruined.

We feel differently:
Imagine our web portal allows you to a regime any hypothesis-4000 revolutions per minute.
Imagine now finish the injection exactly to the upper dead point.
Hypothesis 1: (random numbers) To burn perfectly the deal? of heating oil that you entered ? need a second 1s
Hypothesis 2: (random numbers) To open the drain valve to the scheme are required to 1.1 seconds (considering when is the end of the injection phase, which coincides with the top dead point)

Result: no problem. Everything is running smoothly.

Let's get in the second case, for example, the injection phase ends 15? ATDC
Hypothesis 1: (random numbers) To burn perfectly the deal? of heating oil that you have entered (the same as before) ? need a second 1s.
Hypothesis 2: (random numbers) To open the drain valve to that regime are still needed to be 1.1 seconds, but always from the upper dead point, that is not the same pi? with the phase of end of injection.

In practice and as if the valve is opened after only 0.9 seconds from the end of injection (random numbers)

Result: the diesel brucer? still for 0.1 seconds after that ? open the drain valve.

Really? the situation ? the worst of it as described because? complicated by a number of factors.

You can improve the thing by throwing air at the storm inside the cylinder, or still better by improving the quality? diesel, by adding molecules that are capable of burning quickly, and by improving the atomization of the fuel.
The motions of the swirl, in their turn, allow to improve the combustion allowing for a pi? effective mixing of air with fuel. Apart from this, c'? little to do

[Chris156]

[munro]

I'm not convinced...

[Chris156]

my mom... ( DELETED)for the ennesiama time.. you can inject up to a maximum of 10? after tdc..then depends on the configuration of the cams..but the ceiling ? this.


PLEASE, DO NOT USE OFFENSIVE WORDS AS BY THE RULES AND REGULATIONS!!!

[dott.chem]

Correct, not ? the same thing. To aggravate the matter with two injections subentrerebbero other factors.

[Chris156]

my mom... ( DELETED)for the ennesiama time.. you can inject up to a maximum of 10? after tdc..then depends on the configuration of the cams..but the ceiling ? this.


PLEASE, DO NOT USE OFFENSIVE WORDS AS BY THE RULES AND REGULATIONS!!!

I don't think I have written no word offensive.... the word elimitata ?: AGAIN I SAY TO YOU!!!!!
Maybe you confused!!!! :cool:

[checcosassu]

the game is not worth the candle

[emilground]

According to me ? to try, you can't? to generalize. The advance can? be either a positive thing or negative, it depends from car to car.
Assuming that the map is not thrust you can? also, avoid giving advance, then just try the car and see if it makes smoke from 3500 rpm onwards. In principle you do not need to give advance, but then, if you overdo it with the diesel a little ? necessary.
If by too much you risk breakage very serious and the car tends to not climb well rpm why? the piston starts to find resistance from the date of the start of combustion due to too much advance. According to me ? better to leave that as a last possible change to the advance

[savek]

on the new multiair what do you think of the advance?

[dantesfx]

According to me ? to try, you can't? to generalize. The advance can? be either a positive thing or negative, it depends from car to car.
Assuming that the map is not thrust you can? also, avoid giving advance, then just try the car and see if it makes smoke from 3500 rpm onwards. In principle you do not need to give advance, but then, if you overdo it with the diesel a little ? necessary.
If by too much you risk breakage very serious and the car tends to not climb well rpm why? the piston starts to find resistance from the date of the start of combustion due to too much advance. According to me ? better to leave that as a last possible change to the advance
Considering that the multiair still do not have them mapped here.

[max boost]

[faberecu]

you are sorry .... but the tour what it says... + or - advances the useful result to ****llo-power ... , if we can burn them all without creating excessive temperatures and pressure spikes dangerous for the manovellismi , I say we are ok
but we can with the engine closed to verify ... or we need to do a test to destruction to find out for sure?

I personally maps thrusts use 45 points at full load 4000 rpm , it seems to me to work better , I can post the differences in power next week with advances ori and mod

[tidus1985]

I'll post my solution:

I personally having an engine 1.9 jtdm from 120 hp and 8v we have studied above, and after various tests between smoke; hence, and tour braked I conlcuso that the advance for what regards my engine must be given so as not to exceed 8-9 degrees post pms that fall down to 7-6 for a high rpm, and, indeed, the original map advances to 4500 does finish the injection right in the pms, this is due to their alf act that 4000/4500 rpm the motion of the piston ? very fast and it takes some time to detonate the fuel.

Having said this I what I do: increase the rail usually on maps driven by the 1600 bar the original as closely as arrival also 1720bar at high rpm is usually not more for ncercare to minimize the time of niezione to a high rpm, the increase of 150bar-to-medium speed (e.g. 2500-3000 rpm), then I make the break for the quantity fi diesel that I want to inject, then me the calculation, around you will find a sheet in exel from me posted on how to calculate perfectly time inj engines jtdm, once this is done, I have prepared a sheet exel where I calculation for each number of revolutions of the injection time used in base pressure at that rpm and tinj for that quantity of diesel fuel required-pressure, once this is done the turn in degrees using the formula ((60sec/rpm)/360?)x1000000(usecondi) and I find the time it takes the piston to a degree, (let's leave out that the piston does not go to the speed adjust but effettivamento slows to a stop in the etremita but for the calculation of our advances ? irrelevant), and knowing when to lasts a degree, we divide the onstro time inj for that degree and find how long is the degrees that injection, then subtract the injection time of the advance pretabilito and see if you need to change the advance. this ? my method

[sportknight]

I personally do not edit almost never advances, however,' if I make a map thrust,I feel the car and I see that smoke,in the laps in which to smoke, do 1 degree of advance,if you smoke still do 2,the maximum cmq 3 degrees and I stop,usually to fix and the car is fine...

anyway, I wanted to have advice with regard to the advances of the gasoline car,does anyone know how they work?

[puntospeed1.3]

According to me ? to try, you can't? to generalize. The advance can? be either a positive thing or negative, it depends from car to car.
Assuming that the map is not thrust you can? also, avoid giving advance, then just try the car and see if it makes smoke from 3500 rpm onwards. In principle you do not need to give advance, but then, if you overdo it with the diesel a little ? necessary.
If by too much you risk breakage very serious and the car tends to not climb well rpm why? the piston starts to find resistance from the date of the start of combustion due to too much advance. According to me ? better to leave that as a last possible change to the advance
then on the low and medium engine speeds can go slower and braking if you give too much? at full load 4500 5000 rpm, 1 that can 1.5 there are; but 1 1.5: example 2500giri are considered to be excessive?

[tidus1985]

are never excessive if you need to end the injection in the right spot, obvious, and the good does not exceed a certain threshold, if you see we have advances up to 21 degrees on a jtd, I have found the machine that murava to the 27? then what ? limit, then you have to see if and how many do you need, do not give them to the hell

[jovandj]

I call them what you will, according to me, 0,5, 1 degree on the 3500-4000 to have a bit of aggression in the more we are

[Emanu88]

I agree with msport on maps with increases in relatively low they should be touching them, I know a prepratore that map so heavy many mjet with 2256 and 2260 vk and is located to inject the quantity of galosio important change, and I must say that the feel of running those engines seem to turbo petrol change their own sound and longer until limitaore and with egt in accordance with

[marbis80]

From the various tests that I'm doing on my machine, I can say that I have noticed that with the injection times are very long the car smokes a lot and pushes, however, a lot, with the same times by increasing the advance payments, the machine stops or almost smoking and the output becomes ir? sweet and simple, but at the same time I feel less aggressivit? in riaccelerazioni. These are just feelings we would like the numbers to evaluate the thing, but anyway I don't think it is wrong to edit them, of course, it would be appropriate to at least use the "method of tidus" the cio? calculate what they really need, and never exceed a certain num of degrees of post-injection.

[jovandj]

I try to spegarti and explain why anticipating the end of the injection ends before (obviously) so do not throw fuel or throw much less after the pms...of course l delivery softens and can burn more diesel, but in the next cycle you have less exhaust gas you are loading the turbine and here is why? feel the machine less responsive...lengthen the time and a simple way to increase the classical flow of diesel pero extending the time automatically postpone the end of injection, and you're forced to anticipate in order to avoid the smoke...and as a covered short if you cover above, you'll find out the feet ditto to the contrary.
The ideal would be to find the right compromise between the time-advance, and the method of final fantasy x, and really useful, in fact, I thank him, I am about l to increase or modify the advance: if the times are not changed too much, you can also jon tap advances, but if you to stretch much you're forced to avoid the smoke and have a better combustion and of course a total return best

[dvdtuning]

Tidus when you say in your solution to adapt the break, of which you speak? those of the rail?

[jovandj]

The break poont of the deal? injected are the required torque and rpm, by increasing the prex rail slightly increases the quantity of the injected

[franco75]

I think it relates to the BP of the advance of the Axis relating to the amount? of inj.

[jovandj]

It is the exact Bp advance for accordarli to the new deal? injected

[angelus.d87]

Then x increase a degree of advance how many points should I give?

[tidus1985]

40 45 points on edc15\16

[angelus.d87]

Another question if you change the type 300 points on the final map of advances such as the pros and cons

[megamind]

Another question if you change the type 300 points on the final map of advances such as the pros and cons

? to be verified on the edit. There is no thinking and standardize the effect of the mod.

[angelus.d87]

Ok I understand then I do an example by speaking always from ignorant on the subject.. I Do a edc15p and load the map the pedal with 700/800 points same injection parz, and then injection prov map1 and map2 with increases in ke vary from 40 to 300 points

[megamind]

after making your changes, attacks the diagnosis and make a nice log at that point you realize what you've done. I think that is the easiest way to understand what is succedendo. impressions, ear and diagnosis in hand, together, we'll figure it out.

[angelus.d87]

Ok thanks for the tip.. The only thing that ke can I say to the ear, and which seems to ke and too stressed

[jovandj]

If you gave 300 points to advance I would say that is normal

[angelus.d87]

Moral of the story xk ago so

[jovandj]

Xke if you are given 300 points advance that pi? 7 degrees and obvious that suffers all depends on the rest of the map from the times inj, etc.

[asdone]

As I have explained to the advance payments are also the dimensions of the room ( https://www.professionalchiptuning.net/showthread.php?4923-Chimica-della-reazione-diesel-amp-anticipo-iniezione ). And, above all, count the turns, if you want to pull more than 5000 degrees you have to give it! especially when you consider that usually the maps advances come at 4500 on diesel and then stop.
Giving 7 degrees at 2000 rpm and probably split the engine to the first like ;)
But at 5000 rpm, those degrees "last" much less and therefore the impact ? less!

[jovandj]

More advance and less turns the good would be calculated as an advance to finish up the injection of a degree within a maximum of 2 after tdc

[asdone]

Well this you can? to do, just calculate the speed? angular (we have the rpm), the time of the injection medium to that regime (which basically corresponds to the maximum rail pressure). The point of it ? even so you only have the situation more? clear, but do not know how much time is going to burn that fuel and how much time passes before the peak..

[jovandj]

On this we agree

[ducati83]

I read the whole discussion and would like to understand one thing: because it speaks to the fact that the injection in a diesel engine at the maximum should take no more? 10? DPMS....this is true for the increase in performance?let me explain:I had the chance? to change advances, time pressures, etc...I could hypothetically burn 70mm3 is doing, to inject up to 5?DPMS or up to 8?DPMS redoing the whole map from scratch....but doing such a thing would have performance increases?

[asdone]

Why? to redo the entire map? Just adjust at 70 mm3? For the maximum degree of the end of injection is this ? relative to the number of turns from the engine, the turbo pressure etc..


In general, 8 degrees of EOI at 2000 rpm should be good, 8 degrees at 4500 rpm would probably make only the smoke! this, at least for the tests that I have had on my car :)

[ducati83]

sorry to recap: I calculate the total duration of the cycle, then we subtract the down payment and I have how many degrees after TDC ends the injection right?

[asdone]

END of INJECTION (deg) = (INJECTION TIME) / (1 / (Rpm / 60)) * 360 - ADVANCE

[ducati83]

ok, to increase or decrease the end of injection can only intervene on the injection time..or you work better by tapping the advances?

[asdone]

You work on both, the advance ? the negative offset with respect to the PMS, and the duration is translated into degrees, knowing the rpm. (The formula does not take into account the acceleration of the shaft, but did not ? cos? relevant, I think).

[ducati83]

then I take a look at the map of the injection times of my 159 to 80mm3 have the time of injection 3000 us for 121bar pressure.
now the end of injection would be: 3000/(1/(250/60)*360 - 1.99=3000/ 1/1498.1=3000/0.0006=5000000 then I play 5? DPMS????

[asdone]

Yes, but the time ? in the US... 3000 = 0.003
And then, to me is 2.625 degrees DPMS about

[ducati83]

I'm sorry that the calculations you have done them you can post....?

[asdone]

0.003 seconds / (1 / (250 revolutions per minute / 60 seconds) ) * 360 degrees - 1.99 degrees

0.003 seconds / (1 / 4.16666 revolutions per second) * 360 degrees - 1.99 degrees

0.003 seconds / 0.24 seconds to do a lap * 360 degrees - 1.99 degrees

0.125 relationship duration of injection with respect to the duration of the tour * 360 degrees - 1.99 degrees

4.5 degrees and the duration of injection - 1.99 degrees of advance = 2.51 degrees of end of injection

(in the calculation of the first I had approximated a bit too :P)

[ducati83]

ok thank you....

[puntospeed1.3]

My humble opinion on the matter ? the following:
The advances are to be change in some circumstances. Should be done with the policy, knowing how, knowing why? and knowing what you can? go into the meeting.

I assume that if I want to get powers not monstrous, then reliability, the quantity? of diesel fuel to give and the amount? air to give (therefore pressure) ? modest.
Perhaps a practical example the speech is pi? simple for everyone.
A tdi 160 with 70mg of diesel delivers in theory 190cv to 4000 rpm. Because of the obvious loss of performance as you increase the power, these horses become almost 185 to 4000 rpm with pressure 1.49bar (original pressure detected with the diagnosis).
Power data (rolled) reflect what is obtained with the calculations before you map the drive, there? ? the index that the accounts have been properly made and that everything on the car is working.

You note a p? smoke in certain regimes (predictable in the mapping phase). The problem arises from the fact that for injection 70mg, is injected, typically 8? ATDC, with peaks of 11?.
Despite an AFR of about 15.5 the car smokes why? the diesel fuel ? injected too over the top dead point 8 - 10? the limit for the smoke; hence on many engines on the tdi about 10?.
The smoke does not ? of those exaggerated, you could keep everything cos?, but if you want to fix that?

Or you increase the pressure, or by the advance.
If the pressure does not want to change, is anticipated.
How much? The advance the you can? calculate starting from the original maps. From these, you must extract the required value of the quantity? injection that you are interested in.
To do this, just a p? ingenuity and an EXCEL spreadsheet.
In my case the calculated value ? the state of about 1.25 degrees to 4000g/min. little stuff, but enough to reduce the smoke. now ****lli pi? that acceptable

Change the advance of the injection ? risky. The increase of pressure in the inside of the cylinder ? distributed, but localized in a short time, during ascent of the piston. If the increases are slight, there are no problems, picked with pressure turbo original or low.
In other conditions, you may have an overheating of the engine, cracks in the cylinder head and the piston head, the stress important for the flywheel and the crankshaft.
For quantity? injected very high (a lot) if the values of advance required from the calculations are high, it means that you should change your strategy. You go to the injectors with nozzles increased. In that case, them you can? leave the original, postpone or very, very cautiously anticipate, depending on the size of the holes of the nozzles.
In the case of pressure the turbo is very high with intercooler series, the matter is complicated because of the high temperature of the charge placed in the cylinder and the pressures pi? high.

As I see it, do the logs of the car with the original map and after the map changed ? fundamental.



Hello guys, I have read all of the discussion and the thought of dr. the support as well as that of cicciogsr that says to calculate the advance with the variables in the map.

with the common rail I'm working on it recently, while The injector pump the conosoco more, I have never done any damage, but on the advance here on the tdi has a double effect, i.e. if you enter first, enter more at the end of the duration.

now I have done several tests, even a little exaggerated, and on this I wanted to ask one thing:
from the calculations that I have to inject a quantity important type 75mg 80mg, and wanting to recalibrate the fact that the advance on the peaks of the curves corresponding to these quantities mi values are quite high. Type 170 points equivalent to 3.9 degrees,
now these degrees volendoli give even at low speeds what happens? so, it is part of, or are trying not to inject too far away from the PMS, BUT you up the pressure in the chamber and all the risks. the calculations I know the ones; interpolation etc., some files of the preparatory foreign, I have also seen more.
? the way to go or ? just useless. at low and medium rpm? From personal testing the car become very bad at this point not to withstand the torque.

[asdone]

170 points are equivalent to those degrees to about 4000 rpm, but how you are as a post injection?
At low rpm ? absurd to give them why? at 1500 rpm those 3.9 degrees last much of pi?! Low you can, in my opinion, to act on the pressure (that anyway ? always pi? low to high) to reduce the injection time if necessary. Then son opinions!

[puntospeed1.3]

170 points are always 3.9 degrees.
the bkd 140cv has a 4000 rpm standard on all maps max injection 33? of life and 20? of inizioanticipo, is already in 13gradi after tdc. not ? as the 8valvole. I was wondering how many degrees after tdc you can get.. I also tried with 16 and 17? that came in addition to the 20? in addition to pms to low average. it was smoke, but if the series, once unlocked, the torque limiters, and all without touching the duration already iniettiamo over 13? we do not go away.

[asdone]

I thought that for the points you wish to microseconds in the map times, I ask for forgiveness!
For the low average is also good sfotare 10 degrees of post so much c'? pi? time for the combustion since the engine runs more? slowly.
C'? also to say that pi? c'? air and ir? the reaction ? fast so you need less advance, not for nothing, in fact, on engines with a turbine premium recommend less advance on those of the series!

[puntospeed1.3]

you ? true the turbo ? big indeed, the more you work at high pressure, and less advance is needed.
pero on the tdi, if you start first, enter a lot more, for example:
CASE 1 if you start at 15?btdc and hard 28? and I imesso a tot of diesel and I finished it in 13?after pms.
CASE 2 if I start at 17?before tdc, the hard always 28? I imesso more fuel and I lit the first mixture, and I finished at 11? after pms.
increasing I find more and more performance. now what? the limit? don't bend any connecting rod or crack a few piston?

[asdone]

[puntospeed1.3]

are you always 28 degrees, but if I go first, and hard always to 28, I'll be entering more.
on the common rail ? different.

[checchitotiralaleva]

L?advance ? a lever is very powerful in the calibration phase, we optimize the tour along with the EGR, boost and injection pressure.
The logic of the optimization of the combustion in stationary at the moment (for what I know directly) are: minimize specific fuel consumption, hitting a certain target NOx (function of?efficiency?ATS use) with a certain limit of fumosit?.
With regard to the achievement of the target for NOx the main lever ? l?EGR, followed soon after from?advance.
L?advance injection ? instead, the main lever that we have on the parameter of the specific consumption (CONSUMPTION NOW/KW). But also one of the parameters pi? critical to keep sott?eye with regard to the pressure within the cylinder, followed by the rail pressure.
Increase l?advance of injection, significantly improves the specific fuel consumption (introduce the same mg/hub of fuel, but I get pi? kW), to move the center of gravity of the combustion towards the left (towards TDC), the local temperature of combustion increases, the temperature of the exhaust gas decreases, so? as the fumosit?, but it causes an increase in emissions of NOx and the pressure within the cylinder (structural risk).
From?the other side to increase only the quantity? the maximum injected increases the torque that the motor can? generate but does not improve the specific fuel consumption, move the center of gravity of combustion to the right (towards SME), heats the exhaust gas and is smoking more.
To conclude, I would say that the change of the advances depends a lot from?entity? of the change on the quantity? maximum introduced. In any case, limit it to the areas of the plan that is quoted relative to high rpm and high loads if and only if the diesel ? been significantly increased.
Speaking generally, the calibration current tend to always use less EGR for?reduction of NOx , using jointly all?advance (rather low compared to the past). The motors that we develop to survive at times with the pressures within the cylinder to be increased by 10% compared to the maximum pressure that the reliefs in normal operation. Given that we start with down payments low enough, we must insist a lot with l?advance to increase the pressure within the cylinder up to the desired target.
These considerations to say that, even without the benefit of instrumentation to measure the pressure within the cylinder, and without knowing what the limit of your engine, I don't think there are no problems to increase 1-1.5? l?advance.
I would be very pi? worried from?the increase in bad calls of the diesel, the risk to cook the turbine and the DOC?

[asdone]

[angelolsp]

there are lim in advance....

[checchitotiralaleva]

Thanks Asdone,
there are limiters in advance, in my case - InjCrv_phiMI1Max1EOM0_MAP, ? a map, but the values are cleared... behaves like a curve in function of the rpm..
Inside the base map of the advance you move always in function of rpm and introduction, if you increase the introduction you are going to work on sundry advances. The base map should be calibrated in such a way as to be always below the limit of advance, even in areas beyond the introduction limit.

The management of advances ? very detailed:
- I have little experience why? I never used the first person, but there are also fixes to the payments for the transitional...
- Maps parallel to the advances in the cold;
- Maps that are dedicated to the management of advances during cranking (starter)

[asdone]

If the limiters advance are the ones that I think then on the my files are set to 30 degrees, which are difficult to reach even with the increases are significant.
Of the correction maps in advance I had heard of, but are indicated by the offset values with respect to the base right? Why? I can not find other areas with similar values (EDC15c7)

[SandroMarciano]

from what I've seen on the c7, there are fixes in advance, c'? a map that works with the pilot and one without, the limiter ? actually fixed at 30?, it is located at the bottom of the map.
And I can assure you from direct experience, 3 degrees do not want to say anything (you have to see what engine we're talking about, how it works with the preiniezioni), for the jtd 115 are not too many for the test I went up to 10? in ir?, and not you ? broken anything, unfortunately, the test has shown that they are harmful from the point of view of the performance... (and in the long run I think also from the point of view of the block).

[asdone]

Thanks for the clarification! I have data in 5, but at 5000 rpm, looking at the trend of the previous values, otherwise murava on the 4500 why? then advances mysteriously sank on the original file...

[SandroMarciano]

Thanks for the clarification! I have data in 5, but at 5000 rpm, looking at the trend of the previous values, otherwise murava on the 4500 why? then advances mysteriously sank on the original file...

On the 4500 rpm walls for many reasons, one of the advances ? only a...


from what I've seen on the c7, there are fixes in advance, c'? a map that works with the pilot and one without...

I correct myself, there are and how corrections are immediately after the surge of advances!

[ducati83]

I hope not to be out of place: I explained the terminology introduction and transient???

[SandroMarciano]

I hope not to be out of place: I explained the terminology introduction and transient???

these are the moments immediately following after pressing the pedal, possibly before the turbo, or the rail may have reached the goal

[puntospeed1.3]

checchitotiralaleva: thanks to the intervention is very constructive.



I don't understand.. what do you want to know?