View The Full Version : change advances
ducati83
06-03-2014, 13:32
these are the moments immediately following after pressing the pedal, possibly before the turbo, or the rail may have reached the goal
as always, impeccable....finor? to change the pitch thanks to you...
Ok, I think I've found the maps of corrections advances, but what are they? (do not have axes in the vicinity), I imagine that the a-axis is the number of spins shared with the map advances the base, and the other could be what?
checchitotiralaleva
07-03-2014, 16:38
Hello,
could be the derivative of the introduction. ? a index quickness? of the transient required..
For the record... in our trattoraccio the limiter in advance ? paved to 39?!!!
checchitotiralaleva
07-03-2014, 23:21
But I in the map I see written 39! However, I confirm that I have never found the opportunity to re-calibrate it!
ducati83
11-03-2014, 23:58
guys I have read all of the discussion from the beginning but I can not understand one thing: it is said that the best condition would be to have the end of the injection as pi? close to the upper dead point, then I read that the c'? the possibility? to inject up to about 10? from the PMS; now if you are talking about advances with respect to the ori in the map, giving increases decurta by the duration of the injection duration of the injection DPMS then I go to the PMS,so it is advisable to anticipate or postpone? or in which phases the motor ? better to stay close to us and in which prolugare injection after TDC?
for example, in my 159 and I see that at the bottom between the 1500 2000 round I injected ranging from a minimum of 1.88? 3.50? after the PMS...so if anticipassi even more? keeping close to the PMS I'd write damage?
checchitotiralaleva
12-03-2014, 10:27
Hello, the advance that I know of is defined as the degree engine that elapse between the beginning of the main injection and the LDCS.
Increase the advance allows you to raise the pressure within the cylinder, and then in parit? of diesel fuel to make more?.
The limit to the increase on the advance can? come from the achievement of the maximum pressure within the cylinder of the project.
Or by the passage of the maximum peak pressure inside the cylinder before TDC.
In this case, therefore, increase the advance does not improve ir? the specific consumption. Beyond this point, the benefits you get for the increase of pressure within the cylinder at the beginning of the expansion phase that you have them already? lost for the greater work you need to do on the piston at the end of the compression phase.
Not having the pressure sensors inside the cylinder are available, roughly, I think you could consider that if you keep the end of the injection main flush with the TDC or slightly after, you can be close to the point of great advance... but it CAN ALSO BE SADLY NEAR OR BEYOND THE LIMIT OF the PRESSURE INSIDE the CYLINDER!!!
The duration of the injection degrees engine, you can calculate from the us ET al, injectors, and rpm:
RPM*6*ET/10^6
What I wanted to specify ? the dataset of production are generally "relax on the advance" because of the restrictions in terms of the emission of NOx (typically tend not to exaggerate with the advance, to be able to use less EGR to equal NOx). Then increase the advances in knowledge and parsimony should not do any damage.
In terms of performance/power consumption, postpone the original datasets definitely not good
I would add that at low speed a certain number of degrees corresponds to much more? time that the same degrees at high rpm, in addition to what I have learned, the reaction starts immediately after the injection but not gener? pressure finch? does not reach the walls of the cylinder, this step takes time, and for? ? independent of the number of laps. For this give 3 degrees of advance at 2000 rpm pu? be harmful/counterproductive while the same degrees at 4000 revs have less of an impact why? "last" less!
ducati83
12-03-2014, 14:02
mamma mia, what a nice way to explain things....if I had professors cos? capable of transmitting information, I would have certainly continued the unervisit?.
Then first of all thanks for the interest.
I've always had the belief that the motors of the series due to restriction on emissions, were not at peak performance, always within the maximum reliability? and diciamocela all, bring a motor in this condition is often sufficient as the processing of a production car....
as you speak to us of the original datasets of course, speak of the time of injection, but the ones in the map are already in the us?
then by the calculations made by having, for example, a loss of 1.88? and the duration of injection DPMS I can try to bring it to the pi? close to PMS, or it starts to be harmful?of course, I am talking about ****llo theoretical on paper....then ? to be verified on the field.
checchitotiralaleva
12-03-2014, 18:00
Thanks Ducati,
you speak of the times of injection, do not know how to appear on the ECM or company... I INCA I see them already? in [us]... if you tell us of the orders of magnitude of some of the values of the map we could understand immediately.
For the second question, unfortunately, I do not know how to answer you... would you say that in the original the your advance to the point the engine was not considered x [?], and at that point you inject y [us], that timing will correspond to z [?]...
Then you've done the z-x and ti is = 1.88?, I understood right?
What engine we are talking about, you're in full power to that regime? -- See response Asdone...
In any case, we've never said, but if you want to retouch the advances, you should always connect the map to avoid discontinuit? or the change of trend compared to the original dataset
ducati83
12-03-2014, 19:56
then don't ? 1.88 in? but how can I ? was reported in another post of mine, ? the double with my calculations I for 2 and it was not right so we're doppio3.70? about.
here is a screen of the times
7372
checchitotiralaleva
13-03-2014, 11:18
Ah understand...
but then I think a bit of margin in total security there is... anyway ? the fundamental reasoning on which points the motor you want to make the change... Eye which is usually the maximum pressure inside the cylinder you have it in correspondence of the scheme for which you have the peak power.
In case I decide to change, I recommend to link the map to the best possible, the abrupt changes of the advance are quite harmful (over all feels just change the combustion noise) - is not to be just fine!
Ciaooo
ducati83
13-03-2014, 12:22
my intention was to try a couple of degrees in absso from 1500 to 2000 rpm from 5mm3 to about the 27.5 is that it tells me the map, and connect as you say....a half is a test I made and I have to say that the machine ? very fluid and salt also quickly without big loads on the clutch...now will try? to improve.....
anyway, the important thing is that the ones in the map are the real time and also cash advances,...in order to keep me safe when I go to calcolre the duration after TDC
checchitotiralaleva
13-03-2014, 14:41
The ones in the map, injectors are the us nominal excitation solenoid injector, and are corrected according to the code IMA of each injector.
Moreover, the end time of the excitation ahim? does not coincide with the end of the injection... you have to allow time for the hydraulics to close the needle!
puntospeed1.3
13-03-2014, 21:11
hi.
these are of the screen to the advances of a tdi 8v 130 and a 16v 140cv.
in both tables
note that at 50mg then, the advance remains the same. then you could recalculate for: 60's and 70's. (such as calculations) interpolation?
The area of 1000 rpm up to 60mg port 15?, then going up to rpm here's the hole , and go down to 11?-10? and then begin to ascend.
while in the table of 16v to the brought low-there is a real hole= delay.
checchitotiralaleva
14-03-2014, 11:33
it would be interesting to superimpose the curve introduction the limit in the map, to see if the areas of advance are constant over the introduction limit -- not calibrated.
If it's so? it was, and you wanted to increase the limit curve of the diesel, you could extrapolate the values of the advance on the basis of the trend of the previous values.
If gi? in the original work in areas that advance constant of the introduction, then it means that there must be a reason. For example, the elimination of EGR at high loads and at the same time, the immigrants? to limit the NOx...
puntospeed1.3
14-03-2014, 15:27
from the original iq and actual(from diagnosis) injected both models is about 50mg more or less towards the 4000 spins and then the rest of the map(advance) 55 or 60 is not read.
while already the injection times of the series are calculated for 60 - 65mg.
ducati83
14-03-2014, 16:06
for the experiences of the past days by first computing the map of the duration of the injection DPMS have to say that between the calculated and the do there goes...ok you do the calculations for change in security but test it on the field ? the last word....I'm playing degree and I noticed that up to 3-4 degrees lower, for example, du the multijet is good and you get tangible results....after that, we would need a bit of experience in pi? and instrumentation to actually see what happens in the combustion chamber.....so I guess that all the series cars have a good margin of processing...because precisely from the constraints of the parameters antiinquinamento.rigranzio of course the guys these days are following me and they are giving me a big hand to understand it all to well....the stu forum ? or the top!!!
checchitotiralaleva
14-03-2014, 17:33
from the original iq and actual(from diagnosis) injected both models is about 50mg more or less towards the 4000 spins and then the rest of the map(advance) 55 or 60 is not read.
while already the injection times of the series are calculated for 60 - 65mg.
I think I want and then say that that area of the map over q lim not ? was calibrated. If you want to use it would be good to extrapolate from previous values.
puntospeed1.3
16-03-2014, 22:02
exact. the advance ? calibrated up to 55mg. the injections up to 65mg. that method of calculation, or extrapolation, wish you could do?
checchitotiralaleva
18-03-2014, 17:16
Very correct reasoning asdone.
I fully agree!
dariuccio
22-03-2014, 19:56
I have noticed improvements in anticipation of even a few degrees splash, engine more spirited and more inclined to quickly climb rpm
checchitotiralaleva
26-03-2014, 16:45
Well, as a gi? said the margin in tranquility? I think there is always on the calibration of the current engines, very, very important to never enter discontinuit? in the map of the advances. The swaging of the changes ? indispesabile in my opinion
I would like to do a test to understand how and how much the advances affect the behavior of the engine.
I would like to reset all of the maps in advances from 1500 rpm up to the value of pi? high at that rpm, line-by-line.
Of course, for educational purposes only, I do not mean to make us the most? of a few km.
According to you, the risk of breaking something? I think not, anyway, not oltrepasserei the maximum values!
dariuccio
28-03-2014, 21:11
the diesel engine, unlike the gasoline ? almost immune to explosions, well I hope for the connecting rods, but...
I speak of the maximum of the original values, around x around, not to bring the whole map at 20 degrees from 1000 rpm, the one that would be destructive :P
checchitotiralaleva
31-03-2014, 16:57
Eye Asdone,
definitely not overcome the pressure within the cylinder maximum, but definitely deformerai the pressure curve inside the cylinder cycle.
With the effect that the machine at medium loads could start to make noise (beat) and now go worse as it goes into the source.
With a medium amount? injected, to anticipate the maximum value that you see for the scheme considered (at the time of the high-introductions), you could bring it to the finish injected before TDC. There? it may be that the peak of maximum pressure to go to work not in a phase of expansion, but also against the compression phase. making you lose the benefit of the increase in the pressure within the cylinder.
If you want to do something extreme for educational purposes, without having a pressure sensor inside the cylinder, I would recommend you to calculate all the advances for chamfering the end of each injection, close to the TDC.
In this way you would also get a map with developments connected to the function of the introduction for each regime.
Ciaooo
You probably injected finishes first, for? before you start to bring pressure to pass the time, and that time is set to its maximum value acceptable for the manufacturers to limit the right of the maps advances, at least in cos? I think.
Connect all the points by simulating the operation of the ecu by interpolating laps rail ? a big problem, surely NOT ? to be done by hand, and you hardly can? do with excel...
We would have to write a program that can do it :D
Anyone here ? interested in starting a little project? Or do you know already? a software that can do it?
In this regard I have started a discussion here https://www.professionalchiptuning.net/showthread.php?6115-Software-per-la-combinazione-e-interpolazione-delle-varie-mappe&p=88174#post88174 for those who are interested :)
checchitotiralaleva
01-04-2014, 12:13
I agree that it is complicated, but I don't think a map with a "plateau" advances from 1500rpm up to work well! Apart from all the fittings would also be a bit steep!
I am absolutely convinced that will? bad for you? I wanted to try (if there was no risk of crack on the engine) to test it with the foot, the effects of advances on all the range!
checchitotiralaleva
01-04-2014, 16:28
Let us know then! I'm curious, I don't think you can break something, but I expect that in low revs hurt! :)
time inj does not have a performance "adjust" in quantity, but they have the technical timing of the opening pin which depend in particular on the rail pressure, then the opening time of the needle always remains the same and the more it stays open the more amount of diesel is injected, then a normal and that employs 1 mm3=207 x 80 to inject 80 mm3, but there put? much less because the needle open only once
But anyway, you don't need to know this to calculate the advance payments you just need the injection time in the map for what to calcolarti the exact time of injection you can do it from a pompista to tour you can go near if I'm not mistaken, and used the formula and charge of the capacitor
However, a principle, you can do it..if you really want to know the micron diesel fuel then you need to proceed differently, and for via test benches....in the late 80 78 82 mm3 do not granch? difference
sardoecu
08-07-2014, 12:53
The advances are changed only on the naturally aspirated engine, the turbo will only change if the car has other issues after having mapped without advance.
Where written this rule??
jacktheripper2
06-09-2014, 02:28
Where written this rule??
Quoto. According to me, the change of the advances ? very important both for performance and for fuel consumption. I gave up 3 degrees in some parts of the 'load paralyzed' (calculating all with durations of injection, pressure, diesel fuel and engine rpm), and the difference feels right, the throttle response ? pi? responsive and fuel consumption drop of, not a little, especially in the area of 1500 to 2500. At high rpm instead of the down as well a bit with a light load as the injection ends much before tdc in the last curve. This from the original I think is done on purpose to make a quicker cooling of the engine at the time of release, this is I think from the moment that if I let to hit the throttle to 4500 the egt go down immediately, if, however, a 4500 I put in neutral and let off immediately the engine at 850-900 rpm the egt go down more? slowly.
However, I also reached more than 6 degrees in pi? to 4000 rpm without having the machine walls, speaking also of car with turbo plus, and other components changed. If the diesel fuel is given in abundance, and the advance must be given just as carefully always trying not to inject too much over the pms. The management of the afr has a population of mounts as with a Afr of pi? low " it will speed? the combustion process and then will be? need less advance, and vice versa Afr lean tend to have need? an advance higher because of their speed? combustion is less.
Engine83
12-09-2014, 10:59
hello
if I can, how high is 1 degree in the map?
excuse the ignorance, as they do at lower temperatures by lowering the advance at high rpm and low load, and, at the time of release, you should not be at zero load?
with regard to the difference of heat exchange between the mad and the release in the rotation you say that ? always a question in advance, or because the motor is in rotation and enters the Cut-Off ?
SandroMarciano
12-09-2014, 11:34
The temperature drops because? as it says in Engine83 leaving the engine at a high rpm with request 0 the water pump continues to put into circulation the liquidocon a speed? much higher than that if it were in neutral, then we must not forget that the higher the flow rate of air that enters the engine ? higher than the low, also helps to cool.
Advances have nothing to do, even why? in the release, the injection ? 0!
I'm on normal maps do not edit the advance payments. On mod 'human'. Not more than the degree, even if the limit should be 4gradi.
jacktheripper2
27-09-2014, 15:37
I'm on normal maps do not edit the advance payments. On mod 'human'. Not more than the degree, even if the limit should be 4gradi.
When you start to inject the right amount? substantial from 100mm3 up only 4 degrees, according to me, is not enough.
Personally with 110mm3 use 5 degrees about the 2.0 mjet which has injectors pi? fast.
When you start to inject the right amount? substantial from 100mm3 up only 4 degrees, according to me, is not enough.
Personally with 110mm3 use 5 degrees about the 2.0 mjet which has injectors pi? fast.
I, of course, the increments to the advance does not need to be given to cazzum wisdom well as 1 degree can be harmful, personally, after the advice of jack I moddato advances in the regime 1250 3000 2 degrees you will notice the difference, of course, the machine responds better to spool the turbo, which of course go to lose you retrieve the map with the vgt, for example at 4000 I have about 4 degrees to 80mm3 press rail stock to 1600, with even 0.5 degrees of post PMS and the rest before TDC, now I'm trying to remove a little of advance at low rpm with high IQ to get in better spool the turbo you talk about 0.5 degrees, a bit like the 1.9 140cv-e3 2.0 170cv
jacktheripper2
27-09-2014, 16:13
I, of course, the increments to the advance does not need to be given to cazzum wisdom well as 1 degree can be harmful, personally, after the advice of jack I moddato advances in the regime 1250 3000 2 degrees you will notice the difference, of course, the machine responds better to spool the turbo, which of course go to lose you retrieve the map with the vgt, for example at 4000 I have about 4 degrees to 80mm3 press rail stock to 1600, with even 0.5 degrees of post PMS and the rest before TDC, now I'm trying to remove a little of advance at low rpm with high IQ to get in better spool the turbo you talk about 0.5 degrees, a bit like the 1.9 140cv-e3 2.0 170cv
Sincerely would put up the pressure diesel to 1700 bar and remove a little in advance so as to keep 1 degrees Atdc to 4000 rpm and the end of injection at tdc at 4500 rpm, with 0.1 in most of the turbo pressure. Also you can give even more of 80mm3 in the medium regime, coming up to 95mm3 without smoke. Usually I do 90mm3 from the map and a ruler, then from the lambda to what limit.
With 80mm3 about 3800 rpm I rolled on bapro 170 hp on a 8v with only 0.05 in most of the turbo pressure (1.45-1.5 peak and 1.35 to 4000).
The rail pressure bring it almost to the maximum. For you with 1600bar default you arrive as well to 1750. Not ? that increases only to make themselves better. You just need to increase only the prex of the rail, the control unit is autoadatta on almost all of the other parameters, but not on the advance. The advances should be made only by the 3000giri up, cos? you are unable to 'digest' all the diesel fuel injected. Do not forget a factor very important for the 16v...the intersection. Greetings.
jacktheripper2
29-09-2014, 09:55
The rail pressure bring it almost to the maximum. For you with 1600bar default you arrive as well to 1750. Not ? that increases only to make themselves better. You just need to increase only the prex of the rail, the control unit is autoadatta on almost all of the other parameters, but not on the advance. The advances should be made only by the 3000giri up, cos? you are unable to 'digest' all the diesel fuel injected. Do not forget a factor very important for the 16v...the intersection. Greetings.
I'm sorry but I do not agree. First of all raise the rail to 1750 bar, especially on standard maps, I find it to be only harmful to the pump and the injectors.
Second, the advances, if you know what you are doing, you can make completely, the engine will clearly improve in reattivit? and consumption.
SandroMarciano
29-09-2014, 11:37
The rail pressure bring it almost to the maximum. For you with 1600bar default you arrive as well to 1750. Not ? that increases only to make themselves better. You just need to increase only the prex of the rail, the control unit is autoadatta on almost all of the other parameters, but not on the advance. The advances should be made only by the 3000giri up, cos? you are unable to 'digest' all the diesel fuel injected. Do not forget a factor very important for the 16v...the intersection. Greetings.
The control unit does not autoadatta at all, changing the rail pressure varies that and that's it. The edc16c39, among other things, autoadatta only with respect to lambda, in particular, to match the data detected by the mass air flow sensor with those of the lambda.
Then you should anticipate only at 3000rpm? According to what rule?
I always argue that it anticipates where it is needed, that is to say, adjust the injection in order to have a balance between the pressures in the chamber and exhaust temperatures so as to take better advantage of the engine.
jacktheripper2
29-09-2014, 11:56
Raising the rail to only change the injection time which is shortened a bit. But everything else remains exactly the same.
I'm sorry but I do not agree. First of all raise the rail to 1750 bar, especially on standard maps, I find it to be only harmful to the pump and the injectors.
Second, the advances, if you know what you are doing, you can make completely, the engine will clearly improve in reattivit? and consumption.
Sorry, but harmful x what? If the high pressure pump has an operating range of up to 1800bar why? it should break? The same goes for the injectors.
Chiaritemi a doubt...but what are the advances? What are they for?
Raising the rail to only change the injection time which is shortened a bit. But everything else remains exactly the same.
Also the amount? of fuel and other things. This from the edc16.
The control unit does not autoadatta at all, changing the rail pressure varies that and that's it. The edc16c39, among other things, autoadatta only with respect to lambda, in particular, to match the data detected by the mass air flow sensor with those of the lambda.
Then you should anticipate only at 3000rpm? According to what rule?
I always argue that it anticipates where it is needed, that is to say, adjust the injection in order to have a balance between the pressures in the chamber and exhaust temperatures so as to take better advantage of the engine.
it will only fit on the lambda...and you said nothing! what is this adaptation? which parameters change in the regular course of the lambda?
jacktheripper2
30-09-2014, 09:43
Also the amount? of fuel and other things. This from the edc16.
reading your responses, including the following in your message that you quoted, I know that something don't you ? clear. First of all, raising the pressure of fuel does not increase the amount? diesel fuel is injected, because it decreases the time of injection and the quantity? diesel fuel therefore remains unchanged, we are not talking about an add-on module that tricks the pressure sensor diesel, and then the ecu unconsciously alzer? the pressure of fuel without then abbasssare the time of the injection, and then, in that case, the amount? of diesel fuel increases.
The advance is given to keep egt are not too high, however, and to make better use of the surplus of diesel injected.
The pressure in the chamber ? the pressure that is created in the combustion chamber for each cycle of the engine, and this ? very much influenced by the advance used, by the pressure from the turbo and from the amount? diesel fuel is injected.
jacktheripper2
30-09-2014, 09:49
Sorry, but harmful x what? If the high pressure pump has an operating range of up to 1800bar why? it should break? The same goes for the injectors.
Chiaritemi a doubt...but what are the advances? What are they for?
If you think it is healthy to work the fuel pump, the component is very delicate, close to its limit you to continue with your theory.
The advances are the angle of start of injection with respect to the pms anyway.
SandroMarciano
30-09-2014, 11:02
Sorry, but harmful x what? If the high pressure pump has an operating range of up to 1800bar why? it should break? The same goes for the injectors.
Chiaritemi a doubt...but what are the advances? What are they for?
the hp pump has specific and up to 1800, but it surely increases a lot of wear to the pressures that you speak of. Together they will also increase the inefficiencies, and thus the power consumption, so that pressure ? inevitable work with l? where the injection time becomes too long, but this one has with maps and thrusts and components are often increased (especially TC).
Also the amount? of fuel and other things. This from the edc16.
absolutely no, by changing the p.rail only changes the pressure, and then the ecu uses a longer time? short to inject the same fuel.
it will only fit on the lambda...and you said nothing! what is this adaptation? which parameters change in the regular course of the lambda?
1 - the lambda is autoadatta to have values that are coincident between mass air flow sensor and oxygen remaining in the exhaust gas, then ? an adjustment that depends on the component, from its internal features, it does not vary by changing the map, in fact, that procedure must be done if you replace the mass air flow sensor or lambda probe.
2 - pressure in the room means the maximum pressure reached in the combustion chamber, which allows one to move the piston.
3 - why you should anticipate only from 3000rpm?
4 - the temperature in the room (along with the pressures) are also a problem of diesel engines with high specific power.
If you think it is healthy to work the fuel pump, the component is very delicate, close to its limit you to continue with your theory.
The advances are the angle of start of injection with respect to the pms anyway.
For down payments....I was rhetorical :)
Ela.Toretto
03-10-2014, 18:01
hello Ela, your speech ? logical, but if I have a pump that I sold with operating characteristics to 1600bar why? it should break? Understand my speech? It would be like saying that your car has an engine that can? turn 4500g/m ,but you do turn up to 3000 if you do not wear before. At that point, made a panda! haha
Ela.Toretto
04-10-2014, 22:07
Hi to all, I would like to reopen this discussion because, in addition to being interesting and vital to the understanding of the mod to make advances, even the idea of what is going to be changed and the conditions under which it is clarified by reading the various rear
Now let us turn to the questions that I would like to ask...
Let's take an example on the car stock with engine 1,9 jtdm (in my case, the 147 120 hp-treated by the English name..) that as factors of advances ORI has:
975 (µsec has 22 degrees to 70mm3 of inj with 1600bar of prx at 4500rpm and calculated from the pms to 26,32 degrees (+ 5 degrees of post and I think there are too many).
In the incrementing of that map (we are talking about edc16c39) to take it to an iq equal to 100mm3, I calculate the times and all the rest that I need and finqui ok.
The last step before upload it is to climb the advances for the new IQ, which, from 22,01 degrees ori doing the calculations, I get to 1180 µsec with 31,86 degrees with the rail pressure to 1700 (having the pump rail of the lybra 2,4 I presume contains such a request without problems as it is not for a long time, of course..).
Now my question is this..
How do I determine the value to be set on the advances to ensure that you do not go out out with degrees (in theory as I understand it no more than 3, but they are voices) to be able to increase this map based on the increase of IQ ?
Just wondering what criteria should be increased (regardless of whether in % or calculated.. I have taste), and what are the limits to which I can escape?
I am working on this map but I'm stuck on these points, as the details are not clear enough about it.
I thought of climbing all the map advances so as to arrive at the maximum at 25 degrees that I know more than I'm going to the wall increases (not done, but read by tidus) but I don't know what criteria, if climbing by the 70mm3 to 100 with only 3 degrees at full load or, 60mm3 to 70mm3 are specular values, consider the step 24 as the value to be set in the table 80mm3 and keep it constant up to 100mm3, but does not make much sense...
I look forward to your opinions.
I'm attaching a screen of the table in excel on which I'm working on.. is a bit confusionata but I have locked up all the factors to which to refer for the calculations without the need to click elsewhere to search for values.
I have also read on post9 of this topic but I did not understand very well...
Small OT in the annexes to the template [online support] (one in the lower right) covers the function keys.. place it so that it is unmanageable..
Hi to all, I would like to reopen this discussion because, in addition to being interesting and vital to the understanding of the mod to make advances, even the idea of what is going to be changed and the conditions under which it is clarified by reading the various rear
Now let us turn to the questions that I would like to ask...
Let's take an example on the car stock with engine 1,9 jtdm (in my case, the 147 120 hp-treated by the English name..) that as factors of advances ORI has:
975 (µsec has 22 degrees to 70mm3 of inj with 1600bar of prx at 4500rpm and calculated from the pms to 26,32 degrees (+ 5 degrees of post and I think there are too many).
In the incrementing of that map (we are talking about edc16c39) to take it to an iq equal to 100mm3, I calculate the times and all the rest that I need and finqui ok.
The last step before upload it is to climb the advances for the new IQ, which, from 22,01 degrees ori doing the calculations, I get to 1180 µsec with 31,86 degrees with the rail pressure to 1700 (having the pump rail of the lybra 2,4 I presume contains such a request without problems as it is not for a long time, of course..).
Now my question is this..
How do I determine the value to be set on the advances to ensure that you do not go out out with degrees (in theory as I understand it no more than 3, but they are voices) to be able to increase this map based on the increase of IQ ?
Just wondering what criteria should be increased (regardless of whether in % or calculated.. I have taste), and what are the limits to which I can escape?
I am working on this map but I'm stuck on these points, as the details are not clear enough about it.
I thought of climbing all the map advances so as to arrive at the maximum at 25 degrees that I know more than I'm going to the wall increases (not done, but read by tidus) but I don't know what criteria, if climbing by the 70mm3 to 100 with only 3 degrees at full load or, 60mm3 to 70mm3 are specular values, consider the step 24 as the value to be set in the table 80mm3 and keep it constant up to 100mm3, but does not make much sense...
I look forward to your opinions.
I'm attaching a screen of the table in excel on which I'm working on.. is a bit confusionata but I have locked up all the factors to which to refer for the calculations without the need to click elsewhere to search for values.
I have also read on post9 of this topic but I did not understand very well...
Small OT in the annexes to the template [online support] (one in the lower right) covers the function keys.. place it so that it is unmanageable..
Hello, I answer you briefly what I think..
Let's say that each of us has different thoughts, I personally prefer to give a little more advance than finishing the injection and up to 10 degrees after tdc.. the failure of the engines, according to me, are more related to the map in general, and especially to the state of the components (especially the fuel injectors)..
Personally I also use 27.5-28 degrees on 8v and 30 degrees on the 16v. Certainly it's all about what to look for one from the machine, the turbine mounts, how to use the machine..
I have friends who have broken 8v with 25 degrees maximum advance as some that I do run with 27-28 degrees without problems, one also is very close to the 300cv so you can imagine the amount of fuel and turbo pressure that uses that engine (of course with the injectors appropriate).
According to me, I would never have an answer on how to do it because everyone has their own theories and opinions on the topic
Hello, I answer you briefly what I think..
Let's say that each of us has different thoughts, I personally prefer to give a little more advance than finishing the injection and up to 10 degrees after tdc.. the failure of the engines, according to me, are more related to the map in general, and especially to the state of the components (especially the fuel injectors)..
Personally I also use 27.5-28 degrees on 8v and 30 degrees on the 16v. Certainly it's all about what to look for one from the machine, the turbine mounts, how to use the machine..
I have friends who have broken 8v with 25 degrees maximum advance as some that I do run with 27-28 degrees without problems, one also is very close to the 300cv so you can imagine the amount of fuel and turbo pressure that uses that engine (of course with the injectors appropriate).
According to me, I would never have an answer on how to do it because everyone has their own theories and opinions on the topic
Well, of course I was focused on hearing the personal opinions and have feedback/comparison with the most competent people in this regard.
The speech of the advances is not a simple matter of quick response, to be sure should be tested in conjunction with a pressure probe in the room and the temperature in the room, but on average it seems that on the mjet 8v up to 25 degrees does not give problems, but I repeat, it seems, is not an exact science without the proper tools. With regard to the injections you are wrong, 5 degrees post tdc nn are too many, too many are 12/13, 5 degrees at 4500 are a luxury, in the mid range, you can stay up to 8/9 degrees post tdc for noj to have too much heat, and smoke; hence, anxhe because it helps and not a little to spool the turbo.
Haven says jack, noj and an exact science, and he tests it has made a lot more of me!
The speech of the advances is not a simple matter of quick response, to be sure should be tested in conjunction with a pressure probe in the room and the temperature in the room, but on average it seems that on the mjet 8v up to 25 degrees does not give problems, but I repeat, it seems, is not an exact science without the proper tools. With regard to the injections you are wrong, 5 degrees post tdc nn are too many, too many are 12/13, 5 degrees at 4500 are a luxury, in the mid range, you can stay up to 8/9 degrees post tdc for noj to have too much heat, and smoke; hence, anxhe because it helps and not a little to spool the turbo.
I agree that it is not an easy thing, it's a year almost that I have been in the way of the ecu (they are not of the craft in the slightest) and so the study advances the chaos in comparison to the rest.
Honestly, I was hoping for your intervention, so much because I studied a lot with your post (thanks for sharing), so why are we talking about the same car you know like the palm of your hand.
Coming back to degrees then according to you the table that I posted I can safely stay to those values calculated ?
That is, from 22gradi ori to 70mm3 I can safely set the 31gradi to 100mm3 without too many problems?
Haven says jack, noj and an exact science, and he tests it has made a lot more of me!
I have no doubt.. I have read many of your post and I have an idea of your preparation ;)
I agree that it is not an easy thing, it's a year almost that I have been in the way of the ecu (they are not of the craft in the slightest) and so the study advances the chaos in comparison to the rest.
Honestly, I was hoping for your intervention, so much because I studied a lot with your post (thanks for sharing), so why are we talking about the same car you know like the palm of your hand.
Coming back to degrees then according to you the table that I posted I can safely stay to those values calculated ?
That is, from 22gradi ori to 70mm3 I can safely set the 31gradi to 100mm3 without too many problems?
You know that if you slap on a pylon of reinforced concrete, the tear down? T have written in clear letters 25 degrees max (28 for maps on an engine mod) , you can go to post up to 10. If you are in need of 31 degrees to 100 mm3, put 25 in the map and you will have 6 degrees of inj after tdc. It is clear stu fattu? Don't worry about the tones I and he we are used to
You know that if you slap on a pylon of reinforced concrete, the tear down? T have written in clear letters 25 degrees max (28 for maps on an engine mod) , you can go to post up to 10. If you are in need of 31 degrees to 100 mm3, put 25 in the map and you will have 6 degrees of inj after tdc. It is clear stu fattu? Don't worry about the tones I and he we are used to
If I slam against a pillar, you move before him to me, and anyway if you do not slam your head I enjoy only half.. you know!
perfect.. all clear! Thank you to all 3 for the clarification
R5 uu fatt is chiar mo!
(I and r5 there like a free of charge often, but there voLLiamo well.)
Hello tranky, I agree with Errecinque... time ago, in a trial I need 32 degrees of injection, and I used the 25 ppms and 7 dpms... when I do these tests I don't go more than 8 degrees dpms (10 for me and' the maximum), however, you have to try and rely as much as possible, of your feelings since that you, like me, you are just a fan and do not have the right equipment! The 156 in question constrictor digesting quietly in the 25 degrees of advance, on another occasion, a 147 instead murava a lot (in both cases, the fumes acceptable)...
Hello tranky, I agree with Errecinque... time ago, in a trial I need 32 degrees of injection, and I used the 25 ppms and 7 dpms... when I do these tests I don't go more than 8 degrees dpms (10 for me and' the maximum), however, you have to try and rely as much as possible, of your feelings since that you, like me, you are just a fan and do not have the right equipment! The 156 in question constrictor digesting quietly in the 25 degrees of advance, on another occasion, a 147 instead murava a lot (in both cases, the fumes acceptable)...
Thank you friend, I certainly commend what has been said and I don't go over 24 degrees, at least on the first test, the less I'm clear that in ppms, I have the threshold of non-masonry and the dpms is below the threshold of risk declared.
I assume anyway that the 156 it-yourself option which is mentioned both a 16v and from what has been said above has threshold degree greater than 8v.. or maybe not, and it's a 8v.. it was so much to say..
Thank you all for the clarification.. it is hard to learn such information if it is not shared by those in the know and kicked us in the head..
Sorry I'm intruding, I also in the post,
I am in my car a 535d 6 cylinder in-line with edc16c35
ori has 26° of advance and 29° of the time injected, and then inject
3° after tdc, of course at maximum rpm and load.
Now I've tried to make a mod in which spremevo the most out of this engine,
the result is 38°, injected at the maximum and decrease in the rpm lower and lower loads.
Now reading that the alfa 159 also comes with 40° of advance is of the soi, which is injected into and knowing what comes my,
my it seems strange that you are not able to exceed 25°.
I wanted to point out that, however, I am also of the idea that an advance excessive damages to the bushings for the too much pressure generated
in my case, an increase of 200 Bar, however, that it is also true that at high speeds, for the rest of the table, we are well below 25°, we say that my increases
on the soi,main, and post is not disaccostano of more than 5° from the original in the areas of cruise, perhaps it is slightly delayed at low engine speeds and loads to make the engine more elastic and park
ah sorry for the 159 I mean with the original map is not modified
ah sorry for the 159 I mean with the original map is not modified
Get a diagnosis and check things out actual before saying certain statements, because you might be mistaken..
1) there is a limiter advances, and over 30 degrees is not to be
2) the value of 40 degrees is not used as it does not use the injection which is given that value
3) also on your bmw rivedrei good things
Get a diagnosis and check things out actual before saying certain statements, because you might be mistaken..
1) there is a limiter advances, and over 30 degrees is not to be
2) the value of 40 degrees is not used as it does not use the injection which is given that value
3) also on your bmw rivedrei good things
I love.. beyond a certain point, you walls to the beast, the factors can be many, other than the limiter because the rail pressure does not support, the time is not enough or the inj are worth...
Friend take this opportunity to ask you a question...you know in that area is leased, this limiter advances on edc16c39 alfa/fiat (in my case) ?
I tried a sieve but I have not found anything about it...
Thanks
I love.. beyond a certain point, you walls to the beast, the factors can be many, other than the limiter because the rail pressure does not support, the time is not enough or the inj are worth...
Friend take this opportunity to ask you a question...you know in that area is leased, this limiter advances on edc16c39 alfa/fiat (in my case) ?
I tried a sieve but I have not found anything about it...
Thanks
Immediately after the last map advances.
Immediately after the last map advances.
I swear to you that I do not find it.. I am attaching the file ORI in case you want me to point out?
I can only find lines climbing immediately after, and at the end something that has a value of 22 (the maximum degrees golds) but I don't know if it is that... you 1d1430..
I pray you to the point of showing me this mystery that we are out crazy!!
I swear to you that I do not find it.. I am attaching the file ORI in case you want me to point out?
I can only find lines climbing immediately after, and at the end something that has a value of 22 (the maximum degrees golds) but I don't know if it is that... you 1d1430..
I pray you to the point of showing me this mystery that we are out crazy!!
They are not at the pc now, however if it is a 8v is not a 30 degrees fixed but is made to the lineup. This is the first map after the advances, you can't get it wrong the bp immediately after the limiter.
On the 8v size 25.92 degrees, it seems to me
I have never mapped a 159 and I have never seen a file,
as I wrote, I found people who spoke
of these famous 40°, and I gave the example that between my 26°
and these alleged 40° to say that it is not possible to get there it seems strange to me.
I open a small parenthesis, it depends on the construction of the bearings, i.e.
how many MPa resist going to anticipate the injection may be, as of course they all say
a damage or not.
However, you have already mapped the 535d? it is only a question to confront us
I have never mapped a 159 and I have never seen a file,
as I wrote, I found people who spoke
of these famous 40°, and I gave the example that between my 26°
and these alleged 40° to say that it is not possible to get there it seems strange to me.
I open a small parenthesis, it depends on the construction of the bearings, i.e.
how many MPa resist going to anticipate the injection may be, as of course they all say
a damage or not.
However, you have already mapped the 535d? it is only a question to confront us
Made a calculation on the basis of the rail pressure of how many degrees you have, and you remove all doubt.. normally on a 1,9 (1910) with the rail pressure maximum 1700bar does not exceed the 38gradi that murano and usually the difference of the grades is divided by two and is added to the pms, and then say get to 40gradi sounds really bullshit..
forgive me, I was wrong.. the degrees are not 38, but 32.. sorry!
At 5000 rpm, or a pressure of 1600 bar for a time of 979 uS
and inject really 73 mg (86 mm^3), I personally do not use the bars for the calculation:
the formula I use is (979*6*5000)/10^6=29,28
The proof of concept to see if the formula is right is this:
Knowing that at 5000 rpm for 1° takes 33,33 uS,
you 979/33,33=29,28
Having how to map the main 26,50 I know that is after the tdc 3°
At 5000 rpm, or a pressure of 1600 bar for a time of 979 uS
and inject really 73 mg (86 mm^3), I personally do not use the bars for the calculation:
the formula I use is (979*6*5000)/10^6=29,28
The proof of concept to see if the formula is right is this:
Knowing that at 5000 rpm for 1° takes 33,33 uS,
you 979/33,33=29,28
Having how to map the main 26,50 I know that is after the tdc 3°
Stock injects 86mm3 to 5000 rpm?
from what I was taught by a little (not na the top, but the ioc slammed the horns strongly) do this calculation..
for example, on the injection ori to 4500 (the regime of bp that I have on my edc16c39)
4500/60/1000000x360=0,027 x times to 80mm3) the time and gold to 80mm3 to 1600 bar are 975 microseconds = 26,32 degrees and the duration of injection ori
injection mod always at 4500rpm:
4500/60/1000000X360=0,027 x times to 100mm3 and times mod 1700 bar (new bp is created) and 1180 microseconds = 31,86 degrees
At the end is the dfferenza and you get the difference in degrees of inj that should be centered for proper combustion, but then you do more testing and log that in calculation.. often the walls or maybe ingurgita some degree..
I hope I have not wrong calculations but I would say no
for Jack, the car injects 86 mm^3 ori
for Tranky, listen to you crucciare with a myriad of accounts, if you follow what I told you, I do it before
making the account on your are about 22°, and is calibrated to 4000 rpm and 500 rpm in the 147
thrown.
for Jack, the car injects 86 mm^3 ori
for Tranky, listen to you crucciare with a myriad of accounts, if you follow what I told you, I do it before
making the account on your are about 22°, and is calibrated to 4000 rpm and 500 rpm in the 147
thrown.
It seems to me a value alqunto high to drive stock.. talking about 5000 rpm...
from what I was taught by a little (not na the top, but the ioc slammed the horns strongly) do this calculation..
for example, on the injection ori to 4500 (the regime of bp that I have on my edc16c39)
4500/60/1000000x360=0,027 x times to 80mm3) the time and gold to 80mm3 to 1600 bar are 975 microseconds = 26,32 degrees and the duration of injection ori
injection mod always at 4500rpm:
4500/60/1000000X360=0,027 x times to 100mm3 and times mod 1700 bar (new bp is created) and 1180 microseconds = 31,86 degrees
At the end is the dfferenza and you get the difference in degrees of inj that should be centered for proper combustion, but then you do more testing and log that in calculation.. often the walls or maybe ingurgita some degree..
I hope I have not wrong calculations but I would say no
The sin that stock to 4500 injects between 50 and 55mm3 about and not 80..
The sin that stock to 4500 injects between 50 and 55mm3 about and not 80..
true.. stock these cars come as bp 64mm3 that even reach.
For me to mess with the factor of rpm, for me I am 4000
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