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I open this discussion in the survey since? I had the opportunity? see and try a mazda 5 transformed recently, the owner of the car in addition has given me information that I personally nn convince much since? are theoretically incompatible with what I have acquired a couple of years ago, some of you have had experiences about..anyway I approfondir? + this topic that could be interesting and with a lot of opportunities
Good topic !!
According to my experience, what you see in the network and so far I have tried ? somewhat undersized for the real request by a diesel engine. In any case, building a super cell I can not understand from the point of view of energy, where it can be the fuel savings why? so much ? the current required to produce the HHO ( and to make it the alternator burns diesel in + ) to the final product ( HHO ) put back into the cycle does not succeed? never even reach the break-even point ( which would encourage at least the gain performance of the car )..
however, I am open and willing to change my mind in front of arguments mathematically and consistently supported .
I have in-depth speech and energetically speaking, the budget does not ? for nothing in favour of saving... for now we are very far from a solution that can affrancarci on fossil fuels, the production of oxyhydrogen with that type of cells ? a trivial than the energy it takes to produce it... the increases in performance for me are null and void, except that you can inject a large quantity? HHO... then in that case the address changes...
I agree with both of you, and may I add that according to me the only benefit that can? be pu? result from an optimization of the combustion, but it seems to me absurd that we face to save fuel at the end... the 2? the principle teaches!
Yes, they say that on some cars that drive has been installed and are able to do 3-4 km litre, with a charge for fitting around 600 euros without form maf/pdf,
I still don't trust it,
According to my humble opinion, little is gained....we should work on biodiesel but it is not for the usual suspects...do you remember the Italian's declared? to extract the fuel from the garbage???they wanted to do outside..now you know where ??? in switzerland and st? working in total darkness? protected by the swiss government...
there are systems that create hydrocarbons from recycled plastic the ? been forbidden to use the fuel even within their company.. I have seen a service time f? in the tv... the solution c'? but not to be? never out of...
if you're referring to that self-styled engineer who is now working to cold fusion, know that the whole quellimmondizia who wanted to turn in hydrocarbons storage cupboard' just in different companies, warehouses and yards disused and now it seems to still be full.. and without concluding anything as fact by' always blame others for the failures..Quote:
Originally Written by tezzero
however, the checker on the mass air flow sensor to install on the car with hho ? a simple variable resistor to 1k, which serves to attenuate the signal sent to the ecu box? face to inject less fuel, and then lean .. so much so that that is less from the diesel, in the intentions of those who sell and made from the mixture of oxyhydrogen.
I repeat that imho ? a pure rather that, since the cost does not recover anything, but only smenarci money.
Do you remember Cricket?? He did see on TV, an engineer with an old fiat 850 (to understand the minibus of the sisters) that went to the water!!!
In fact, you put it near the exhaust and breathing, said: People that's what I'm breathing in the exhaust pipe is water vapor!!!
After the transmission was not able to more' nothing, all gone !!! The oil is a nasty beast !!!
Guys, even if they are neoiscritto to the forum, something about the hho I know, I can help myself to do a little bit of clarity on key concepts that have been already? mentioned a little bit from everyone.
The oxyhydrogen gas (water) acts primarily as an accelerator and optimizer of combustion. Made tangible ? that the unburned gases are DRASTICALLY brought down when you install a generator, even by only 1-1,5 liters per minute of gas.
Then, if ? true that nothing is created and nothing is destroyed, and that, therefore, how much energy you expend (through the alternator and generating a higher resistance on its axis) so you'll find yourself in the chemical energy of the gas, less the losses due to the heat generated by the cell; but ? also true that we must not forget that our cars do not convert the chemical energy of fuel into mechanical energy at the wheels with a good efficiency, but can barely get close to 20%. A large part ? dissipated as heat (in fact, we have the radiator), then there are the various frictions, etc.,
The injection of oxyhydrogen allows a pi? complete combustion in the combustion chamber, and then is transformed to pi? chemical energy of fuel into mechanical energy at the wheels, and the game is worth the candle.
Then, the ECU intervenes to frustrate all, reading (from lambda) that the mixture ? lean (given that the discharge law, a higher percentage of oxygen), and then injects a quantity? increased fuel economy.
Why you "scam" by inserting spacers on the probe, lambda, or modules on the mass air flow sensor that always have the same purpose to make believe to the ecu that the mixture is rich enough.
The one that made him see Cricket was not a car on water, but the internal combustion engine, traditional, powered by cylinders of hydrogen in the combustion is generated as a by-product water. There remained the problem of how to fill those cylinders of hydrogen, and on their ability? in safety. If to fill them uses an electrolytic dissociation occurs by means of generators that work with traditional fuels, you have only moved the problem (? you can make them in a manner that optimizes the return on the generators).
guys... the perpetual motion have not yet been invented, wake up!!!Quote:
Originally Written by Dragonfly
In that sense, I do not understand.
in the sense that as you rightly said lukemon it takes energy to produce the hydrogen to put in the tank, so at the end if the machine "you seem to be free" the trsformazione of water to hydrogen is not it ?, and therefore you lose the benefit.Quote:
Originally Written by Dragonfly
1.5 l are very related... at that temperature, pressure?Quote:
Originally Written by lukemon79
a 1.91 l of displacement "consumes" 3850l/m *4000rpm, also 5l are few in comparison... I think that all of the savings is given by the deception to the mass air flow sensor...
I say to you, my: some time ago installammo a kit hho on a volvo fh 16 to perform a test by two engineers(improvised in my opinion) that according to their calculations needed to obtain a saving of about 20% of fuel. The first trip, the driver has reported an increase in consumption of about 5%, after a fortnight the stops the engine because of the cells that you are dissolved, and the engine began to suck up water. It's almost finished barrel between the owner of the company, and the two engineers.
For m? hho cells are only a hoax. Then I would like to see in the long run also the damage they can cause. If I remember correctly the hydrogen with aluminium reacts and weakens it, so I don't know up to that point, the pistons could hold.
very interesting story... that two people speak of saving 20% describing themselves as "engineers" ? an insult to the category!Quote:
Originally Written by ecucilacunta
And who is talking about perpetual motion? The energy of the zero point, you know what?? Do you know from where you get the surplus energy of cold fusion? Does not violate any principle of thermodynamics, if you accept that we do not live in AN ISOLATED SYSTEM, and if the energy is drawn from the outside.Quote:
Originally Written by SandroMarciano
It is true that the oxyhydrogen pu? create cracks in the aluminum, but also in the cast, and for this it is advisable to deal with products, ptfe (teflon), and the motor. With regard to these pseudo-engineers of which you speak, I don't think that was so? professional if they calculated the thermal drift of the cell: they will put too much electrolyte, and the cell had a chain reaction in which pi? the cell is heated, pi? increased its conductivity?, and then the increased flow of current heated the further the electrolyte. If you don't have electronics on board that limits the current, at least go easy on the sodium Hydroxide (caustic soda) or NaHCO3 (sodium bicarbonate)
just a few months ago, I have been interested in these cells, informing me left and right, as each what were the pros and cons, then I pick up the phone name is one of the largest distributors of qst tools and put the cards on the table, I tell him that I am interested in mounting these devices in quantity? industrial, provided that:
1 - give me the exclusive area
2 - do not sell smoke
I replied that those who had currently had recently discovered, which would produce little ( I listed a whole series of parameters), but with the universit? torino were studying the new cells that avrebber? the product of pi?, for? these that already? sold cost about€ 200, the ones that he was studying in collaboration with the united sarebber? cost about 1000€....instead, I heard on the radio in my area are installing systems to methane on the diesel car, does anyone know how they work?
As far as I know, the diesel car with a cng system, unlike a car, gasoline and lpg/cng, are filled with methane, do not switch completely to gaseous fuel.
There are natural gas with lpg, the part of the plant does not differ much from that of the normal transformations for gasoline vehicles there? what changes ? the electronic management.
In essence, the diesel is used to start the combustion cycle and, when the vehicle ? in the scheme, is introduced to the gas, also the injections of fuel are also reduced by 50-60 % and is burnt gas in the room.
It is quite complex but gi? used for years in south-east asia, instead of from us, especially on public transport permitting - on the long haul - to contain part of the costs ( around 25-30%), as well as? to reduce emissions of pollutants and the much-dreaded fine dust without the use of a particle filter.
In the automotive field, we are of the accomplishments of the landi but for now between costs and the reluctance of the market to nothing widespread, although immediately available and verified..
We do not pull out the birth of the universe etc etc, the energy of the zero point has nothing to do with the present world and still ? the form of the idea, that cold fusion does not work at the moment (I have watched with interest the old ITER project from when they started to talk about it). We pull out topics that are not related.Quote:
Originally Written by lukemon79
Here we talk about the efficiency of a complex electrolytic cell - engine combusitone internal. I believe that the only advantages that may be from the contribution of hho to the engine are optimization of combustion, but let me doubt that thing can change in a motor 2L, the contribution of 1L/m hho.
The main issue ? the alternator avr? a dispersion of energy (in the form of mechanical - see the belt and the pulley - and form into electrical energy);
the electrical cables, they shall be separated;
the electrolytic cell is not the avr? performance unit.
At the end from my point of view already? to pay back what you spent (in terms of improving the efficiency of the engine) will be? hard.
Another matter if the purpose of this system ? for reasons of pollution (which would have to be checked).
PS: The chapter plants to natural gas - lpg on-ignition engines compression-let's talk about it in another discussion, they are completely different from cells and hydrogen, and they, too, have a lot of current relevance
I opened this post x to know your impressions about it, I agree with our friend sandromarciano, although I must say that already? in 1908 was filed for a patent in the u.s.a. with the principles of the current cells that are placed on the market in this period and especially in the areas of bergamo, many do not know that a couple of years ago fiat was testing a fiat multipla to methane and hydrogen, and given that everything is svogleva in the centre for studies piaggio I had the chance? both see that to follow the results,I must say that in my opinion were very satisfactory...but the project was shelved somewhere? x which is why, like that of a bmw or genepax anyway, in the meantime, in germany the bus internal to some airports continue to be fed with this principle, but also generators that are not those proposed in the network ,that said, going back to the mazda, which I recently had the opportunity to see and st? turning in my part, I can say that these kits sold for the purpose of reducing the consumption nn are in the truth? and ? as it says in our friend sandro.
The council sandromarciano and to those who want to study in detail about the alternative energy (I don't think I violate the rules by doing there?, given that not ? a forum "competitor") to give you a look at the site (or better: to the forum) www.energeticambiente.it
The question is not ? cos? trivial, why? from the experimental data shows that the fuel savings of c'? and not ? the placebo effect (you know you have the plant, and then press the less the throttle), even if the gas ? little, doesn't it ? uninfluential.
The proof of it ? the nissan, in collaboration with marangoni, has made a version of the 370z, which adopts a system of oxyhydrogen gas, to reduce pollutants and fuel consumption.
no offense, but I know the alternative energy, I studied the texts which were based on objective data, this has led me to draw the above conclusions. The 370z hydro I've heard of it, but I have also read that ? been prepared ****llo motoring from Marian, and this ? the first fact that makes me tremble...
Guys I can tell you that the company I work with daily, that has a lot of experience in the racing sector, and preparations began to mount these kits after having tried for about 4 months on two different cars of their properties?: Grande punto abarth and bwm 320d 177cv. The fuel consumption are evident, as are decremented on some parameters of diesel/gasoline in the mapping, on the diesel it is around 30% on petrol at 20%. Used cars for testing, and then also rolled in the bench to see loss of power, etc.? come to have the same power source consuming as gi? said.
Well, dvdtuning. Give us more information, which we are interested. Are of the dry cell? There are modules for "fool" the lambda probes? PWM to modulate the power supply of the electrolytic cell?
Interesting discourse. I'm building one complete with the dry cell is made in house. This hobby and curiosity? but I assure you that the production of hydrogen, gi? head to the bench with a transformer, requires, as said by some users, too much current in comparison to the hydrogen product. In substance it is not expedient to produce it. It is necessary to say that then drive the alternator runs not only to the gasoline burned but also for the various forces in play (rotation, deceleration, etc.), then not all of the energy to produce the hydrogen comes from the gasoline.
Excellent observation! Right? the problem ? the oxyhydrogen you can't? preserve, and produce it when the car is decelerating or braking ? pretty useless... No?
Buond? to all of you.
In regard to the plants HHO, I been reading up some time ago in going to your same conclusions, the cio? to produce this hydrogen gas had to be, in any case, consume electrical energy to bring about the electrolysis of water.
I remember that somewhere I even read of an explosion of one of these devices, caused by a loss of gas (HHO), which came into contact with the power supply of the device itself. (The hydrogen ? difficult to store, and it also has the bad habit of being easy to explosions.)
If, instead, we thought of producing hydrogen through a chemical process is electrolysis?
Carry-over cos? from a reading on a forum:
"Without having to do the electrolysis of water, which requires electricity, can you? get hydrogen gas from the reaction of aluminum placed in an aqueous solution of caustic soda.
The aluminum can? to recover from the cans, while the caustic soda, or sodium hydroxide, can be found in supermarkets around 1 euro / Kg.
We should be careful not to develop the reaction, so dizzying.
The hydrogen produced ? a fuel such as methane, which can? burn in contact with air in a simple Beak of a Bunsen burner.
The hydrogen ? dangerous, but if we produce it at need, without accumularlo in airtight containers, there are dangers."
Source: http://terraevita.forumfree.it/?t=57521681
My idea would be to produce the hydrogen by this reaction, a small system can be mounted to the edge of the car and managed electronically.
Now I don't know how much hydrogen yield with a given quantity? of caustic soda, and then not know how to assess the actual gains or avoiding of the reaction.
Greetings.
the ki work ?Quote:
Originally Written by dvdtuning
Has anyone else tried these modules for performance?
I wanted to try on a tmax, according to you and' fattibie
That surely ? feasible, you need to verify the usefulness
The mechanic where I stand, that normally only serves the tractors ? really oldschool, has an engine with the compressed air system and told me that some time ago he wanted to make a hybrid hydrogen-but none of the two motors deserves to be mentioned(not even the 7 series hydrogen-had road, altroch? mechanic of the campaign). Really? finch? do not get to cold fusion ? it's useless to try other systems, even the most skillful Tesla, miles don't grind, and maintenance ? stellar.
a wonderful idea but is too difficult to put into common practice
dear sirs
even if the delay is a reply to the conversation with my current experience on hydrogen systems mounted on the diesel and precisely on a truck iveco eurostar cursor 480.
after a few trips and after checks on possible consumption (we were promised a consumption -20% of diesel fuel ) are disappointing, and without relying on a higher wear and load on the alternator