Who tells me what are the break point?

[ducati83]

Hello everyone who wants to explain what they are and what the break point?
looking for example the map-pressure injectors of a edc16 I see on there are the numbers of laps, and on the other the mm3 injected....am I wrong?
then their operation?

[sportknight]

one indicates the x-axis and the other the y, to certain of the x-axis and y-you're of the values on the map

I know at 6000 rpm and 70 mm3 find 1400 bar

each curve first then the value to a value of the bp of the x
each point on the curve first then the value to a value of y

? pi? simple than it seems

[ducati83]

can I post a picture to better understand each other?

[sportknight]

sure,but put signs or numbers to understand even better :D

[ducati83]

ok looking at the picture I can see that the curve n1 we are given the rpm and then meeting as a maximum of 4500 in the map that follows and in the curve n2 we see that the mm3 injected....if ? cos?....ranging up to 7000 so I guess max 70mm3 (I say 70 because? in the table k=0.01 and then 7000*0.01=70)

now, if you edit the curve n1 and the port to 5000 (rpm?) then saving and going again in 2d, I see that the limit of the map ? more 4500 but 5000..so what did I do? I moved the limit mm3 injected from 4500 to 5000 rpm?

:confused:
6138

[sportknight]

if you change the curve number 1 you have changed the bp,but then you have to keep looking to change the other in the other curves that have bp similar otherwise ? as if I had not done anything

[ducati83]

I'm sorry I don't understand.....let's start a little more back...if I touch the break point by passing it from 4500 to 5000 and then as you say you will carry in the other maps, for example, injection time map pedal pressure turbo....actually what am I doing?

[sportknight]

Are you making sure that your car has the maps to get to 5000 rpm while before stopping to 4500

[franco75]

simply that value in the map, you match when you are at 5000 rpm instead of 4000. Imagine the map in 3D ? as if ampliassi an axis extending the map to a number of revolutions higher. The map is used to identify a value (Z-axis) crossing the two axes in their series of values. This series ? defined by the BP for each individual axis.
Try to make a chart with a 3D surface in excel and you will see that grab on the fly, their meaning

[mikyrace82]

Excellent explanation...

[ducati83]

perfect then we had arrived.
then how do I change for example the number of revolutions can I change the mm3 injected.....so if by BP step from 70 to 75 mm3, automatically, I have done that for example, if the first to 3500 rpm 70mm3 was a pressure 1200mbar....now at 3500 rpm are 75mm3 injected to 1200mbar? just this change to increase the flow rate of the diesel? of course, by making changes to the BP similar in the map.....

[enzopezzano]

if you change the BP,for example, rail pressure, you need to adjust the maps relative to the pressure in the rail, and so on,otherwise it would not make sense to change them.

[franco75]

perfect then we had arrived.
then how do I change for example the number of revolutions can I change the mm3 injected.....so if by BP step from 70 to 75 mm3, automatically, I have done that for example, if the first to 3500 rpm 70mm3 was a pressure 1200mbar....now at 3500 rpm are 75mm3 injected to 1200mbar? just this change to increase the flow rate of the diesel? of course, by making changes to the BP similar in the map.....
No, I know that I have explained myself badly, BP are used to identify the point in the map and then the value in the Z-axis of THE BP are the current input (and therefore the conditions snapshots of operation).
If you increase the BP 70 to 75 mm3 don't do anything but change the working point of the map.
In your example I think you refer to the map Rail pressure. If you change the BP 70 to 75 would you not do other things that decrease the operating pressure, the one that was expected to be 70 mm3 after the change would be achieved at 75.

[jovandj]

the BP is used to identify what can be written in the map, that'll explain it to you better as the abscissa and the y-coordinate in a cartesian plane, for example in the EDC16C39 where in the ECM are required torque during the standard terms and conditions, and the driver tells you the percentage of the right to the left and spins from top to bottom, if you go to see the BP you will find increasing values up to 8192, which is the maximum pedal force and increasing values up to 6000 rpm (if I'm not mistaken) that define the turns, all the map to find the relationship between them, i.e. with the 10% of the pedal at 2000 rpm you have that the pair (IDEAL) request

[ducati83]

hmmm now I'm embarrassed.....
then we try to summarize a little bit: if you look at the image I attached....I the maximum value of the circle 2 the port 7800 if I'm not mistaken starting from 7000,now if I save and back on the map in mm3) of each curve, I can't find 4500giri 70mm3 4000giri 60mm3 but I wrote 4500giri 78mm3 4000giri 60mm3 , etc, etc, then if you load the file, what happens to me?is injected or no greater quantity? diesel fuel at that pressure written in the table?and for clarity also the individual values in the table are called BP?

[jovandj]

depends on the injection time if you get the ecu that those are 78 mm3), you have to make sure that the injector is open for the right time (or almost for us mere mortals) to inject 78 mm3, if you bring only the BP 78 mm3 but not adapt to the times (70 brought to 78) to inject less fuel

[franco75]

simply to 78 mm3, you have the pressure that you had a 70 mm3, as a result of 70 mm3, you'll have a pressure more low. The quantity? do not change it, only decrease the pressure

[jovandj]

You why? in this case we speak of pressure but not so in all the maps

[ducati83]

so summing up if increase as said before, the BP of the map pressure injectors in the deal? mm3...I have to go to adjust the pressure logically....so as not to be lower than before and adjust the mark-up increasing times of injected?

[jovandj]

No then if you more the map rail pressure referring to the bp of the part (mm3) injected tell the ecu to inject 80 (counting the bonus) and need that pressure to ****llo to increase the injected fuel does not change anything, you still have to adjust the map with times and unlock the limiters of diesel to inject more

[biondo83]

now I understand.....I do a test, and the place....cos? let's see if at least the logic ? right....


ok looking at the picture I can see that the curve n1 we are given the rpm and then meeting as a maximum of 4500 in the map that follows and in the curve n2 we see that the mm3 injected....if ? cos?....ranging up to 7000 so I guess max 70mm3 (I say 70 because? in the table k=0.01 and then 7000*0.01=70)

now, if you edit the curve n1 and the port to 5000 (rpm?) then saving and going again in 2d, I see that the limit of the map ? more 4500 but 5000..so what did I do? I moved the limit mm3 injected from 4500 to 5000 rpm?

:confused:
6138


Unfortunately, the image does not ? downloadable by anyone who still has not reached the threshold provided for by regulation.
You could load it in the HTML format cos? you can view it along with the text, and then make it better the concept is explained and, thus, to open other similar discussions?

Thanks. :o

and how do you..?

anyway, I did a file take a look....




Load the image on to a website, upload images free, and then paste here the html code that you get:

[ I M G ] photos [/I M G]

(removing the spaces).

At least cos? there are clear explanations that they have given other users given that they do not ? can download attachments.

Thanks.

[leandro89]

the file can be downloaded to the achievement of 80 messages, any external link to work around this limitation of the download will be? cancelled and will be taken the right considerations for the user who post the link

[jovandj]

now I understand.....I do a test, and the place....cos? let's see if at least the logic ? right....




Unfortunately, the image does not ? downloadable by anyone who still has not reached the threshold provided for by regulation.
You could load it in the HTML format cos? you can view it along with the text, and then make it better the concept is explained and, thus, to open other similar discussions?

Thanks. :o

and how do you..?

anyway, I did a file take a look....




Load the image on to a website, upload images free, and then paste here the html code that you get:

[ I M G ] photos [/I M G]

(removing the spaces).

At least cos? there are clear explanations that they have given other users given that they do not ? can download attachments.

Thanks.

then there is the file ori I have compared it with the one in database, DPF removed with time or ecusafe, EGR closed correctly, all the rest has no logic, maps pedal original, torque limiter too rise too soon risk the clutch and flywheel, limiters diesel unlocked 3 to 4, and for 100 and 110 mm3 (that, however, does not require and in any case the map NM IQ you could give to the 110 mm3), changed management EGR to pro se and closed?, the injection times made terrible modified too low even at the minimum what do you do with that diesel?, pressure turbo exaggerated, rail pressure as well, rail pressure changed as well in regeneration, repeat****

[jovandj]

edit BP rail pressure is made correctly

[ducati83]

cabbage and where do you see all these things......:D
so apart from the fact that the increments are not right....even the logic is that okay?
then take it for a good change BP rail pressure.....
anyway, I didn't think I have touched the management egr......which maps would it be?

then I imagine that the torque limiter is 1CF3EC
then I find the rail pressure changed in regeneration, and maybe I can figure out what it is and the pressure turbo I have just touched....

I made some changes....even if I don't understand where I touched the management egr pressure turbo and torque limiter....at least from the ecm and what I've seen around....the management of those parameters, I have not touched....

[franco75]

have you changed the BP from 75 to 80, but the curve of the rail pressure ? the same as with the BP 70, virtually nothing changes.
for the rest I fully agree with Jovandj

[ducati83]

well then now I'm just going to confusion, and why? some things I did not touch, but they touch....then the maps are marked with incorrect names...

[franco75]

perhaps we also take an original file is different, I compared the files in the database with the name Alfa romeo 159 1.9 JTDM 150 0281013138 380494
We are probably using the file "Original" different

[biondo83]

the file can be downloaded to the achievement of 80 messages, any external link to work around this limitation of the download will be? cancelled and will be taken the right considerations for the user who post the link

By reading the rules deduced as follows:



Are allowed all the discussions provided? do not speak and do not encourage the use of software pirates, crack, serial, false, material that is illegal or inappropriate, link to content that is illegal or inappropriate, and all that ? protected by Copyright and the right of the author and do not only.

Another point of regulation that refers to the external links:


d) Links to business and advertising? links to other forums competitors (prevents spam)

Therefore, there seems to me to be forbidden to publish an image (in the format "link code") aimed at the study of the subject, the object, whose image ? been processed by the user who participates in the forum.

Anyway, I am waiting for explanations, probably c'? something that escapes me in the regulation.

Thank you so much.

if in the forum there is a mode? advanced to insert attachments I don't see why you need to use other link for it to work around the limit of 80 messages, with this I close off-topic

[ugoboss]

well then now I'm just going to confusion, and why? some things I did not touch, but they touch....then the maps are marked with incorrect names...

where did you get this file?, very probably not original.

[jovandj]

where did you get this file?, very probably not original.

I was thinking I

[ducati83]

ok then, place the gold that was given to me when he went to delete the dpf and egr to the car with the file mod that I have done....
in another discussion, my c'? the files that are currently ? loaded in the car....
https://www.professionalchiptuning.net/showthread.php?4718-Info-su-comportamento-alfa-159-150cv

here are the files

[franco75]

now he has more sense,

[msport (exil77grande)]

By reading the rules deduced as follows:



Another point of regulation that refers to the external links:



Therefore, there seems to me to be forbidden to publish an image (in the format "link code") aimed at the study of the subject, the object, whose image ? been processed by the user who participates in the forum.

Anyway, I am waiting for explanations, probably c'? something that escapes me in the regulation.

Thank you so much.

if in the forum there is a mode? advanced to insert attachments I don't see why you need to use other link for it to work around the limit of 80 messages, with this I close off-topic

I invite you to follow the directions of the moderator.

[ducati83]

hello franco....then I confirm that my changes have a logic?
that I have not touched management egr torque limiter and that the rail pressure ? exact?

[franco75]

1cba80 I don't know what it is, a torque limiter is not touched, the p. rail you have changed only one map that I think is the one in regeneration.
you lack even a limiter, I can confirm the EGR is not touched
Start by 1c1674 and the like that are the maps pedal torque request and the torque limiters, on the basis of these match the rest
I inform you that I'm not very experienced and I can also make mistakes

[ducati83]

well, we are here to understand.....then if we were to go wrong, the two I just hope that someone will correct....

;)

[jovandj]

then, by comparing this file ORI
https://www.professionalchiptuning.net/showthread.php?59-alfa-159&p=131&viewfull=1#post131
and the file mod2 that you posted you can tell that it is doing better,still torque limiter too aggressive, rail pressure is too high, the limiters unlocked all but a fixed regime which is not in the maximum pero they have been unlocked, turbo too high still, management VGT I don't know why and was modified so that the times inj in short, the egr closed and dpf removed with time or ecusafe, the pedal was not changed (????), The DTC will all be deleted, the limiter, the function of speed and was raised to 110 why?? if all the others are 80??, touch the other maps for the regeneration that does not come into play because it has a DPF, and yet others that I have no idea what they are

[ducati83]

hmm now I'm making confusion with the files.....then you told me you mod2......
I now place this file let me understand if we talk about this

[jovandj]

the ori and the one that I used before this mod does not make sense

[ducati83]

then the mod was supposed to be this

[ducati83]

no one else has taken a look at what I've done?
I am attaching a file that I have prepared with regard to the injection time and I would like to understand if once you have defined the formula Tinj=(IQ*(K)/√Prail** and the constant K= (√Prail * Tinj)/ IQ-the calculation of the new time of injection ? right or not...

[ducati83]

guys no one has given me an opinion on this file that I have attached with respect to the time of injection.....
if someone knows and wants to give him a look?

[Errecinque]

Sorry I will give you a summary of what I understand about the BP and did it myself on my map (we are talking about 147 140cv edc16c8) . The limiters iq as a function of temp and conditions of the car clearly have been lifted to 80mm3 (my goal). Then I tried all the maps that they brought on an axis q.t? diesel (prex turbo was a 70 as the prex of the rail and the 5 maps-injection phase) and I raised on the second curve that shows the horizontal axis and the last 2 values from 60 to 70 and from 70 to 80. In the table, so I copied the values of the last column to the 70's in one of the 60. Theoretically the map tinj and time should not be touched why? gi? calculated for the 80 mm3. The procedure here ? exact? Thanks

[jovandj]

Let's say you need to see if from the diagnosis inject them

[Errecinque]

Ok what ? obvious without the response of the diagnosis, you can't make calculations. What for? logic suggests to me ? that, in theory, on the last column, where we informed the ecu of the new limit 80mm3 you should also adjust the values of the Z-axis to the request of 80 instead of leaving them the same as they were for the value of 70. For example, the degrees of advance should be calculated for 80mm3 according to the time calculated for that value. Right?

[jovandj]

The advances must be recalculated for the rest if you encounter problems, you can leave it also climbed to 70

[Exelion1986]

hello to all
after reading this discussion, I finally understood what are the bp, but I have a couple of doubts about the orientation of the axes
looking at a map in 2d, the vertical axis (the cio? where it is possible to read actual values of the map) ? the z-axis
considering a single curve of a mapping, we'll have another axis (horizontal in 2d), and this corresponds to a single point on the third axis (say, perpendicular to the screen)
logic would say that the horizontal ? the x and scrolling through the various curves I increase the y right?

[Errecinque]

Belin that bother you and it is the third time that I all.....Then talking about BP....in the map call from the ecm injection times of my 147 mj 16 V edc16c8 hop in the axis rail pressure of the BP from 400 to 1400 bar 200 bar of scissors from one to the other and from 1500 to 1600 seven BP wasted (1594,1595.....1600), since I want to keep to a max of 1500 what happens if riscalo the axis up to 1500 max using those BP unused to divide the values of Prail? Of course, when the times right.... According to my theory ORI we have the same tinj from 1000 to 1199 and then if I give values more close-I injections more accurate. Has anyone tried that already a MOD like that? I hope I explained well....

[franco75]

Conceptually what you are saying ? correct, but I believe that between 1000 and 1199 is an interpolation

[stilo115cv]

Exact Franco ? just like you say