View The Full Version : The amount of diesel and smoke
I'm still analyzing the EDC15 mounted on the Fiat 1.9 JTD, in which you can? note that the original value of the injection corresponds to 70mm3.
My question ?: based on your experience, how? the maximum value to which you have arrived while maintaining a fumosit? next to the original?
cicciogsr
05-12-2012, 17:29
that 70 you find yourself also in the diagnosis?
that fiat 1.9 jtd are you referring to?
I have seen the fiat 1.9 jtd 8 valve with 90-95mm3 of diesel only the map and not to smoke so much....
I have also seen the fiat 16v mjt with 105mm3 without even a tear of smoke come out and powers between 200 and 220 hp.....
the fact I do not ? the maximum far is too far to not get fumosit? but where and how this iq is given.....if you mess up a mod with 50mm3 of diesel the car to smoke? a locomotive....
msport (exil77grande)
06-12-2012, 09:04
I agree with munro,is not how much you give but how we give.
cicciogsr
06-12-2012, 09:25
I agree as well, I inject 80-90 mm^3 at 4000 rpm for the way I like to drive a car in the diesel fuel does not make sense...
I agree with you and then if you take too much heating oil you risk only the smoke but also to thermally stress the engine....
franco75
06-12-2012, 11:34
More than the quantity? I think it is important to know what the stoichiometric ratio you can get off
cicciogsr
06-12-2012, 12:00
depends on the car
More than the quantity? I think it is important to know what the stoichiometric ratio you can get off
franco the stoichiometric ratio, and a parameter that relates the two factors...always...air and diesel....in the case of the diesel... the understanding that, in a diesel, the air drawn in at various rpm ranges from a tot to a tot in a particular "scissor" of the deal? to get the afr to serve? more diesel....the fact ? that if we give more diesel even a little more, maybe at low rpm where c'? a little air to meet a certain AFR(Air Fuel Ratio) the engine fumera worse than 100 jamaicans....
franco75
06-12-2012, 15:22
speaking in condition of maximum load, the ratio AFR varies as a function of the rpm?
the diesel does not ? as the petrol ? closely related to the ratio AFR as it deviates even slightly from the optimum, you immediately feel the difference in performance, or worse if you ? particolarmentemagri you can? break something especially in turbocharged engines....in the diesel AFR pu? go vary a lot with relationships magrissimissimi of 60:1, nothing happens...the AFR in a diesel is taken into account, it is more for a question of emissions,in fact if it drops to less than 14.5:1, it has a lot of smoke, but in contrast to the benza that if it falls below 12.5:1 AFR loses power the diesel in terms of AFR very fatty and smoky from a lot of power.....watch some tractor pulling, and you'll see you'll see that they raise to heaven the true and own pillars of smoke black as pitch, but the engine sings and pulls that ? a pleasure......
that 70 you find yourself also in the diagnosis?
No, in the diagnosis arrival only to 50mg.
For? I don't know how reliable that value as I am also an inconsistency remarkable:
- Air mass Measured: min 55 - max 542
- Mass Air Objective: min 289 - max 1201
So I guess that could have something with the mass air flow sensor and therefore the ecu limit? the diesel in the function of information it receives, to avoid smoking...
Anyone remember the values of a new mass air flow sensor? In memory of those reported as objective to me would seem to be correct, but I wait for confirmation...
that fiat 1.9 jtd are you referring to?
Fiat 1.9 JTD 8V 110CV with Bosch EDC15C7
I have seen the fiat 1.9 jtd 8 valve with 90-95mm3 of diesel only the map and not to smoke so much....
I have also seen the fiat 16v mjt with 105mm3 without even a tear of smoke come out and powers between 200 and 220 hp.....
the fact I do not ? the maximum far is too far to not get fumosit? but where and how this iq is given.....if you mess up a mod with 50mm3 of diesel the car to smoke? a locomotive....
You can? get values for cos? high? :confused:
I thought that a motor with a completely original could not go beyond the 90...
I agree as well, I inject 80-90 mm^3 at 4000 rpm for the way I like to drive a car in the diesel fuel does not make sense...
Can I please ask you what does it entail? Which problem create? Becomes too nasty? Smoke? Another? :confused:
Thanks! :)
I agree with munro,is not how much you give but how we give.
This ? quite a dilemma...
I imagine about it there are many schools of thought! You how do you think is best? correct to intervene?
with 542mg air and 50mg of diesel do you have an afr of 10.8!! your car dovebbe spew out black smoke worse than the titanic!! according to me c'? something that should not be....then who tells you that with an engine ori that you can't? to go beyond a certain iq?for what reason??
with regard to the maf values, goals are the norm of what a really good maf should give that a maf in good condizionedeve give between 289 and 1201 mg of air
More than the quantity? I think it is important to know what the stoichiometric ratio you can get off
You have grasped the zbc speech! In fact, the stoichiometric ratio is actually? ? the topic from which I wanted to start this discussion, only that I was afraid of making it too technical...
My idea would be to try to comply with a stoichiometric reasonable! Even why? I noticed that the fuel mixture ? rather lean, and then giving it gas, would only try to get as close to the pi? as possible to the ideal value! But without crossing...
depends on the car
Have you tried to do the tests and calculations? Survey community that values the ideals you come? :)
with 542mg air and 50mg of diesel do you have an afr of 10.8!! your car dovebbe spew black smoke worse than the titanic!! according to me c'? something that should not be....
Sincerely I tried to oxen, but by the lights of the machines that followed in the distance, not me ? seemed to see...
then who tells you that with an engine ori not you can? to go beyond a certain iq?for what reason??
This ? quite a dilemma...
I imagine about it there are many schools of thought! You how do you think is best? correct to intervene?
for the limiter, the fumes do not think that you can have a lot of different schools of thought because the mod correctly and a single...to comply with a given afr established by the manufacturer of the engine....then to do this, we can intervene on the lim fumes in different ways...bh? this ? another story...
the only limit of the iq then and that given by the resistance to thermal and mechanical stress of a given engine.....
just to take an example, injection pumps, mechanical scania or iveco V8 I mounted pumps that also gave 1000cc diesel! when ori pump it from the 300-400cc...
cicciogsr
07-12-2012, 07:48
the jtd should have an afr of about 14.3 I don't remember the exact value, if gi? arrivals at 13.5 after 3000 rpm you start to see the smoke..
cicciogsr
07-12-2012, 07:49
the jtd should have an afr of about 14.3 I don't remember the exact value, if gi? arrivals at 13.5 after 3000 rpm you start to see the smoke..
depends on the state of the turbine in close proximity? of the 13 fume and then let's see how much diesel you're inettando and as...
the jtd should have an afr of about 14.3 I don't remember the exact value, if gi? arrivals at 13.5 after 3000 rpm you start to see the smoke..
14.3 you are referring to ? the ideal, or what you have calculated from the original map?
depends on the state of the turbine in close proximity? of the 13 fume...
I'm sorry, but I just do not understand... :(
...and then let's see how much fuel you're inettando and as...
Obviously a deal? you need to respect the pi? possible to the stoichiometric ratio that the avr? established as the ideal...
The "how to" ? instead a bit more? complex...
hehe..wibble ? a p? "cryptic" in his post..***** s, of the l? all....fig your avatar bart!.... we would like to see a good signing in the sentence:"ciucciati the sock"!! ahahahah....
....fico your avatar bart!.... we would like to see the good in signing the phrase:"ciucciati the sock"!! ahahahah....
Thanks munro, like a lot to me... :cool: :D
cicciogsr
07-12-2012, 13:51
14.3 the calculation from the map ori, I haven't seen it but I remember that it should be around 70 if ? a jtd105 even why? ? my car, now without the smoking, you can lower the good or evil up to 13.5 a max of 13 but gi? smokes at high rpm .. the wear and tear of the turbine affects the air flow, so if the meter measures less air for any reason you are not you will return to the diesel that you wanted to have..second if you have the air flow right and you're too low afr when c'? the decline in physiological pressure turbo fumerai.. I explained it?
cicciogsr
07-12-2012, 13:52
hehe..wibble ? a p? "cryptic" in his post..***** s, of the l? all....fig your avatar bart!.... we would like to see a good signing in the sentence:"ciucciati the sock"!! ahahahah....
munro use a language boundary? I do not understand? in the post of the advance I wrote the formula with the unit? of measure but I do not understand... I have explained in detail
Chris156
07-12-2012, 13:55
also in the diesel if you increase too l afr lose performance..a little.. and the temperature rises..
14.3 the calculation from the map ori, I haven't seen it but I remember that it should be about 70 if ? a jtd105 even why? ? my car...
My ? a jtd110, but I think that little change...
But are you sure of that 14,3? To me values are considerably lower... ;)
...now without the smoke, you can lower the good or evil up to 13.5 a max of 13, but gi? smoke at high rpm...
I seem to be the values a bit high, but are you sure?
...the state of wear of the turbine affects the flow of air so if the meter measures less air for any reason you do not find yourself in the diesel fuel, that you wanted to have...
On this we agree! ;)
...second if you have the air flow right and you are too low afr when c'? the decline in physiological pressure turbo fumerai.. I explained it?
And why? you should smoke?! If all the air passes from the air mass meter, when the pressure drops, so consequently, cala, of course, the air intake (and then also the diesel, as soon as also written by you) and therefore you are? it is, however, respected the stoichiometric ratio!
also in the diesel if you increase too much the afr will lose performance..a little.. and the temperature rises..tell those that prepare the tractor or truck pulling....according to me those engines from the 1800's-2000cv traveling with afr of 8:1 if not less....
also in the diesel if you increase too l afr lose performance..a little.. and the temperature rises..
Then, according to you, what value of AFR must be considered as an ideal? Or as a limit not to go beyond?
*bart with 1200 mg of air and 70mg of diesel you're on a nice 17,1:1 afr...which I think is what was established by the mother, fiat...
*bart with 1200 mg of air and 70mg of diesel you're on a nice 17,1:1 afr...which I think is what was established by the mother, fiat...
In fact, I also obtained the average values of lambda of this order, and beyond, for this I asked cicciogsr as he got 14,3 map of the series... ;)
wait..wait bart..we are doing confusion because ciccio said that the diesel fuel are 70mm3 not mg that we should convert to in mg? sincerely now, I can't remember the face if them to multiply by 0.85, we have 70*0,85=59,5 mg but if we divide to 0.85 we have 70/0,85=82,3 mg..now for the first value, we have an afr of 20.1:1, while for the second we have an afr of 14.5:1...so I think you have to divide mm3 by 0.85 to get the right proportion....
Chris156
07-12-2012, 22:07
Then, according to you, what value of AFR must be considered as an ideal? Or as a limit not to go beyond?
remain as much as possible close to the original..
cicciogsr
08-12-2012, 02:10
1200 mg of air for me not to have them measure at least 105 arrives at the max to 1000 ... anyway you are right I remembered wrong l afr ori ? 16 ... in all these post we are talking about smoke and diesel... to me the car who smoke like trains does not make me a genius in the diesel for the old ones maybe we can stay but for new ones I don't think... a bit of diesel in the most also not self-seal helps to reduce or speed up certain phases
dott.chem
08-12-2012, 12:10
Many engines are between 17.5 and 19.5 from oriiginale depends on the class of pollution. The measurements should be made from logs and not from the map. you can find differences for the same car depending on the share of the ****llo of the sea which is made the log. This is because? the map correction turbo pressure as a function of the atmospheric pressure does not follow exactly the corrections of the limiter of QI as a function of the atmospheric pressure.
For engines the maximum performance on the diesel is around 12:1,value valid for the races of acceleration to 400 meters, but risky for the races at kilometer because of the EGT reached.
For maps traditional, up to 15 we you can? go quietly on the condition of having EOI within 8 - 10? ATDC.
Try pr believe :)
Thanks 1000 dr. chem, finally someone who confirms my data and my ideas: how much did you say exactly coincides with the conclusions to which I did, only that I had not yet been able to test because of the problems of mass air flow sensor... :)
Only thing: I could translate EOI and ATDC? Even if I imagine what they are... Thanks! :)
... to me the car who smoke as the train does not make me a genius in the diesel for older maybe we can stand, but for the new ones I don't think...
... a bit of diesel in the most also do not self-seal helps to reduce or speed up some of the stages
Can you explain to me please what you mean by that? Thanks :)
dott.chem
08-12-2012, 14:05
Are acronyms, respectively, of the end of injection after top dead center
Are acronyms, respectively, of the end of injection after top dead center
Thanks 1000: very nice! :)
cicciogsr
08-12-2012, 14:45
that p? of diesel in pi? that can't be compelatamente oxidized helps to first thing to download the gas more? velocememte, and helps to increase the speed? descent of the plunger ? as if there was a force in the pi? that accompanies him in the descent phase of expansion second, the exhaust gases will have a density? greater there? consequently, it helps the turbo to first reach the desired pressure ... all of us? within a certain limit of fumosit? why? counter you may then have the egt high, which can damage the manifolds, turbo etc.. for me it takes a compromise ... the jtd 100 ? different from the 105 because of the turbo..I would do before a log ori to see how injects effettivamene, how much air measurement etc.. then adrei to find the values in map and then try to modify it maintains an afr in the values said in the previous post...
Thanks cicciogsr: very clear and precise! :)
cicciogsr
08-12-2012, 15:44
many times, perhaps, I can not make me understand ... on the jtd 105 with 80 mm^3 smoke sure why? unless you change the turbo mechanically you cannot have an air flow rate that exceeds 1000 mg...on the jtd 100 maybe being able to vary the pressure from the map smoke less... anyway both engines exceeded 3000 rpm have a physiological drop in power..
the only limit of iq and that given by the resistance to thermal and mechanical stress of a given engine.....
without arguing with anyone but I have read posts that they have "wasted" a beautiful p? of words to say what I summed up in the sentence above autoriiportata...and this not ? to make a competition to see who c is? l? longer, but only for "give to caesar the things that ? of caesar"
it seems evidententeches increases iq and lowers the afr and the only limit and the above addition,I would add,as one wants to risk it...certain as death? that a tractor puller diesel with 12:1 afr is only in motion.....
cicciogsr
08-12-2012, 18:54
if there was no need to waste words.. we could stop it before..
munro nobody wants to argue with you or ignore your message! :)
many times, perhaps, I can not make me understand ... on the jtd 105 with 80 mm^3 smoke sure why? unless you change the turbo mechanically you cannot have an air flow rate that exceeds 1000 mg...on the jtd 100 maybe being able to vary the pressure from the map smoke less... anyway both engines exceeded 3000 rpm have a physiological drop in power..
The 105 jtd has variable turbine geometry?
msport (exil77grande)
08-12-2012, 20:31
The 105 jtd has variable turbine geometry?
no,it is fixed.
guys let's be clear...you didn't we are under a dictatorship or to force you to reply to a post? or I should impose my thoughts on anyone....everyone thanks to god and to the democracy pu? say and do there? best believes the most appropriate...
that said bart if you want to ingnorarmi I don't no problem...goal to make it question has established itself prefer...as well as anyone else...
that said bart if you want to ingnorarmi I don't no problem...goal to make it question has established itself prefer...as well as anyone else...
Watch munro that you have understood exactly the opposite of what I wrote! Try to re-read my message: I was actually apologizing with you... :)
If you believe that I was offensive to you I apologize, but it was totally my intention, on the contrary: the contrary... :)
PS: excuse me for the OT :)
bart you're a good boy,for that knowledge from the forum can? give as an impression,to me you are still cute and comfortable that I have offended I think I have made it with you...my post was only "clarification" and see who has had the desired effect...that said I apologize to all for the OT...forgive me...but to me it always happens so in real life too....the first fight a p? with a person and then from l?, not s? why, was born a beautiful friendship....again, forgive me all....please continue to discuss....
hello
... to me it always happens so in real life too....the first fight a p? with a person and then from l?, not s? why, was born a beautiful friendship....
So tonight I am confident that I have found a good friend... ;)
all pu? be bart....one of the cause for which I am writing to the forum ? also to broaden my friendships...
for? maybe ? better if we discuss it in pm...because we are not OT... but scattered in the sahara desert.....in comparison to the title of the tread...
you have to make a small log with a scanner goes well.....taking as references the main quantity? of intake air measured by the mass air flow sensor or maf and the amount? fuel injected...the afr, you can calculate at any engine speed by dividing between them these 2 parameters..for example, the maf reads 800mg of air ? you're injecting 38mg of diesel???and thou shalt make 800/38=21,05 the result ? the afr...then, however, the ecu has map with fumes that already? the is f? all the calculations for you to comply with a afr set by the manufacturer to comply with data parameters....
you don't have to read the data shown on the map and you will have more? clear the situation...
you have been very clear and helpful..thanks a lot!!the map fumes and the one that the ecm calls injection zoned?? according to you, then the optimal value is around 14:1? thanks a lot !!
look at the values in the map and make two accounts.....in the diesel the limit if you do not smoke a lot, and around 16-16,5:1.....
nothing fa2st
look at the values in the map and make two accounts.....in the diesel the limit if you do not smoke a lot, and around 16-16,5:1.....
nothing fa2st
again many thanks!! I'm sorry if I am repetitive, but I don't understand if these values are located in the map injection zoned...thanks a lot!!
in the map fumes or injection zoned as calls that sw 2 money...and find the air and iq diesel not the value directly...
what you have to calculate you...calculator to hand....
ok, thanks a lot for the explanations... of course, by doing so work on the carburetor of the vehicle in question..so starting let's say 18 as the standard value and going to 15 fattening,going up to the 15 smagrisco......right??
excuse me guys,but when you are a beginner and you have great desire to learn, and so...I think we've all been there...;)
franco75
20-12-2012, 20:57
.then, starting let's say 18 as the standard value and going to a 15-fattening,going up to the 15 smagrisco......right??
when we lower the value of tallow, when increases to lose weight
exact... more ? the lower the numeric value the more "fat" the afr, the more smoke you...vice versa, the more the afr ? high ? less smoke you if we talk about diesel.....remember for? the map to the fumes ? a limiter diesel....then you to a certain point, you can set in the map e.g. a value of a minimal type 13:1 but if not c'? the diesel enough "upstream" this? from the DW, the car hardly...fumera why? maybe the maximum injected and gi? given by DW himself.....
exact... more ? the lower the numeric value the more "fat" the afr, the more smoke you...vice versa, the more the afr ? high ? less smoke you if we talk about diesel.....remember for? the map to the fumes ? a limiter diesel....then you to a certain point, you can set in the map e.g. a value of a minimal type 13:1 but if not c'? the diesel enough "upstream" this? from the DW, the car hardly...fumera why? maybe the maximum injected and gi? given by DW himself.....
very clear, thanks! I'll give you another question from a beginner.....what do you mean x IQ??? and for DW?
thanks!!
IQ= Injected Quantity=quantity? injected refers to the fuel..
DW=Driver Wish=wish airbag=map pedal=request you do with the foot through the potentiometer of the throttle to inform the ecu that "want to accelerate" then "you want fuel" for your engine...
IQ= Injected Quantity=quantity? injected refers to the fuel..
DW=Driver Wish=wish airbag=map pedal=request you do with the foot through the potentiometer of the throttle to inform the ecu that "want to accelerate" then "you want fuel" for your engine...
now and clear thanks... and a little a casino sometimes,because ecm titanium use completely different names,so many times I can't connect to certain terms to the terminology used by the ecm
......
Sorry, a small question : which afr in the diesel you get more power or torque ?
In the map of my car I noticed that the rpm low c'? a ratio afr of about 13 rpm low and gradually increases up to 19 - 20.
When I am in the conditions of a afr =13 , my car does not smoke as ever ?
ES :1000 rpm, 570 mg of air and 52,2 mm3.
lupak mess up the calculations...you can not proportionate mg and mm3....you have to convert before the mm3 in mg and then do the calculation...
Hello Munro, I know that the calculations are in mg, I have only the following values in my map that are in mm3; however, 52,2 mm3 =43,85 mg.
however, with a afr of 13:1 do not smoke because the engine is not c'? "load"..he always said that the afr in the diesel ? as that of the gasoline....
the boys use some program to convert mm3 in mg?? thanks
franco75
21-12-2012, 09:50
? sufficient to multiply by the density of the diesel fuel, that is, multiply by 0.85 mm3
? sufficient to multiply by the density of the diesel fuel, that is, multiply by 0.85 mm3
wait because I do not return to the accounts... lupak to the calculated 52,2 mm3 =43,85 mg. but if we do 52,2*0.85 =44.37....... what's wrong?
franco75
21-12-2012, 11:28
he used to 0.84 as the density
however, with a afr of 13:1 do not smoke because the engine is not c'? "load"..he always said that the afr in the diesel ? as that of the gasoline....
Thanks for the reply Munro, ? this is what I'm trying to understand, I'm sorry if you've always said, and I l' I have seen.
why does not c' ? load? why? at 1000 rpm, when I call for example 50 mm3 while allowing it from the map, the fumes, I have a response very slow and still does not smoke? Perhaps for the rail that needs time to raise the pressure?
he used to 0.84 as density?
ok,thanks a lot for the clarification! but then, and a variable value, the density of the diesel?
franco75
21-12-2012, 12:27
yes, but just a little, can vary according to the specific 0,820 to 0,845. Somewhere you will find 0,85 but no matter
http://www.q8.it/prodotti/scheda-gasolio.jsp
yes, but just a little, can vary according to the specific 0,820 to 0,845. Somewhere you will find 0,85 but no matter
http://www.q8.it/prodotti/scheda-gasolio.jsp
thanks a lot,very kind!!
Thanks for the reply Munro, ? this is what I'm trying to understand, I'm sorry if you've always said, and I l' I have seen.
why does not c' ? load? why? at 1000 rpm, when I call for example 50 mm3 while allowing it from the map, the fumes, I have a response very slow and still does not smoke? Perhaps for the rail that needs time to raise the pressure?
the diesel also with reports of afr low does not smoke without the "load" because the engine is not producing as "work" or the power of that to say it wants in this condition...? if, for example, you attach a trailer to the car or try to tackle a salit? at 1000 rpm, you will notice that the car comincer? suddenly a smoke, if you do not match the afr through the map....
and a talk a little bit complex, but let's say that she has great lines, it works well... the afr comes into play only if c'? a "strain" on the part of the engine....take as an example the tractor pulling..even if they have pumps, injection, dumping fuel to dry in the engine to a minimum, do not smoke a lot...they do a light mist grey-bluish mostly due to the fact that in order to use pressure turbo to bend the connecting rods,is used to lower the compression ratio, and then, at a minimum, the diesel does not have the necessary temperature derived from compression to ignite the diesel in that condition....
returning to your car lupak I would like to ask you if you're sure that inject the fuel.....you have done a log??
I have not done a log, but I am studying my map and trying to refine it by trying to migliorarlaun po' from 1000 to 1500 rpm by lowering the afr why? I don't have a ready answer even if it is from the pedal I have a certain request , the limutatore of smoke; hence adequate and appropriate also the torque limiter, increased the rail in those rounds, but I never had the answer to that question that I think I will be able to get just by increasing the time of injection.
I got it from the little lexia to make the log that light' as soon as possible.
thanks a lot,very kind!!
Hello FA2ST in fact I had read somewhere that in order to calculate the mg some use density 0,835 other, instead using 0,85 ; I used 0,84 that ? a middle way, but it does not change much the afr if ultilizziamo a value or another.
lupak I'm sorry of that car we speak..or, better, that the ecu coupled to this are we referring to??
lupak I'm sorry of that car we speak..or, better, that the ecu coupled to this are we referring to??
You-I'm sorry, not the' I told you so, EDC15 C2 peugeot 2.0 hdi 107 hp.
are you sure that the maf will give you a reliable reading??
and pressures rail as you put it?
especially with the low pressure more than the other...the engines psa if you do not have a "low pressure" adequate, sometimes l"effect dormouse" at low revs....
oh I forgot mounts a vgt turbo??
the one with the wastegate coaxial to the rotors??
so guys,if you have not learned bad things are so...to refine the map limiter fumes,trying to smagire in conditions of no load by changing the AFR,so let's say from 0 to 50 % of the load on the engine,then from 50% to 100% of cre altrimarico you try to give more fuel in proportion to the increase of the load in such a way as to make the machine more ready, but without esageraenti smokes......right? can go as reasoning? now I ask you.... since we're going to change the turbo pressure inalzandola a value "x" coarme do I know if they are fat or skinny? I have to fee the data on a log and watching full load? I would like to understand this thing,because I think that if our quantity of fuel and the right and the machine is not too lean,in addition to the risk of rises in temperature and everything else,we will have the car that consumes less because it didn't diesel "more" but at the same time, the drive, and more powerful in terms of yield... thanks a lot!
fa2st from your questions, I realize that you're not very clear how it works a diesel cycle engine.....
you can't expect to change certain parameters if you do not know the basic functioning of a thing.....
I suggest you to search in the forum of the documents that you may understand at least the basics of how to work a diesel...
you'll see that then some questions will not have more way to be asked....
I did not clear the reason of your answer, why? I'm simply trying to understand how to act on a map smoke... Since I am new to the field mappings, maybe I make confusion between mod a map gas and a map of a diesel engine, but with all due respect , I think that in 10 years as a mechanic I have seen,disassembled,cleaned up and redone some of the diesel engines. So if you want it, tell me where I'm wrong. Make a statement of this kind does not seem to be the case. Thanks
are you sure that the maf will give you a reliable reading??
and pressures rail as you put it?
especially with the low pressure more than the other...the engines psa if you do not have a "low pressure" adequate, sometimes l"effect dormouse" at low revs....
From a log that I made a little while ago, I saw the peaks of 1200 mg of intake air.
in the map of 1000 rpm with the maximum demand of IQ I have 7300 bar
What would be the effect dormouse ? ? slow in response ?
For the turbo I'm not sure (I'm not a mechanic) I think dia fixed geometry, unfortunately my car is in the rear of the engine that is not readily accessible and not visible.
Chris156
24-12-2012 12:00 pm
it seems to me a little bit of 1000 rpm, the rail-to-7300 bar... you have to see the file ori.
The ori in the last 2 break point has a value of 6912 bar
fa2st from your questions, I realize that you're not very clear how it works a diesel cycle engine.....
you can't expect to change certain parameters if you do not know the basic functioning of a thing.....
I suggest you to search in the forum of the documents that you may understand at least the basics of how to work a diesel...
you'll see that then some questions will not have more way to be asked....
I look forward to kindly a response munro...unfortunately not all we learned... thanks
Fast what? the application??
if ? for this even I was born, learned..
indeed the little things that I think I know I have learned from.
explode82
24-12-2012, 17:31
according to me, are exchanging the bar for quantity? diesel
Fast what? the application??
if ? for this even I was born, learned..
indeed the little things that I think I know I have learned from.
you say that I have not clear how a diesel engine,I have asked several questions which you have answered me
"fa2st from your questions, I realize that you're not very clear how it works a diesel cycle engine.....
you can't expect to change certain parameters if you do not know the basic functioning of a thing.....
I suggest you to search in the forum of the documents that you may understand at least the basics of how to work a diesel...
you'll see that then some questions will not have more way to be asked,"
kindly how do you know more than me,could you explain? thanks
Alessandro....
I did not understand what you I should explain...
if you continue to return to my post but I do not ask a specific question....
I think we can stay here for the purposes of the new year....
according to me, are exchanging the bar for quantity? diesel
Hello eplode82, I'm confusing, I only asked a question, obviously, more bar in the rail is equivalent to more quantity of diesel.
My question was on how I could increase the performance when I get to 1000 rpm .
In my case I noticed improvements only by increasing the injection times and not from the map fumes or pedal or couple.
I asked myself the question if the pump is taking a long time to raise the pressure to give what I ask from the pedal.
explode82
24-12-2012, 23:43
Hello eplode82, I'm confusing, I only asked a question, obviously, more bar in the rail is equivalent to more quantity of diesel.
My question was on how I could increase the performance when I get to 1000 rpm .
In my case I noticed improvements only by increasing the injection times and not from the map fumes or pedal or couple.
I asked myself the question if the pump is taking a long time to raise the pressure to give what I ask from the pedal.
then 1000 rpm ? a p? difficult of performance,starting from the pedal,it at low rpm ? already very high as a request for the rail,that very much depends on the mechanics,in the sense that the pumps are driven by a motor,such as for example the pump of the rail that is located on the 1.3 mjt that ? operated by the camshaft,and to give certain pressure needs a certain njumero of laps, and just for fairness the most? rail not from pi? diesel,it is more useful to fill the flute under the au request massive diesel.........with this I think I've given you the answer pi? that specific on what you wanted to know
Thanks for the reply explode82, in the peugeot 2.0 hdi pump to the rail ? electric, doesn't it ? driven from the camshaft. To fill the flute in the peugeot there is a map called "Rail pressure precontrol value", which indicates the position of the valve that regulates the amount of diesel fuel that falls into the tank.
Then at the same time of injection with increased rail I have the same amount of fuel ?
in the pegeout hdi the high pressure pump of the common rail and is operated by the timing belt...
and by the masimo 1350-1400bar..
you maybe lupak you confused with the electric fuel pump low pressure fuel-feed pump of the common rail...
in this case, the pressure read you to 7300bar in reality and refers to the low pressure and ? the millibar..or 7300 millibars, corresponding to 7.3 bar....
I would also say to explode82 that his statement..where he says that most rail not more diesel and totally wrong!!
if so, the additional electronic devices, which are fitted on the sensor and press the rail and serving to increase the press ingannado the ecu with a signal lower, so that the ecu reacts by increasing the press,would have no way to exist
so back to answer lupak equal to the opening time of the injector for es 560us with the rail to 700 bar injection for es 50mm3 of diesel...if the port rail to 1400 bar with always 560us opening the injector as diesel fuel in most injection???
I would add that you need to know the flow rate of an injector does not ? proportional to the pressure variation,the flow rate increases with the square root of the pressure increase...then double the rail pressure does not equate to double the flow injector, but "only" to 1/4...
the formula ?:flow2=flow1*sqrt of press1/press2....
sqrt=square root...
press1=700bar
press2=1400bar
flow1 in this calculation and 50mm3
flow2 and the new port injector with the press2...
to you the conclusions....
Thanks Munro for these explanations, I see that you're very well with the theory and mathematical formulas;
With regard to the pump you are right, I am confused with pressure and low pressure.
The 7300 bar read them from the map rail mod.
From what I have written, I realized that the high-pressure pump at 1000 rpm can give pressures only and that if I would like to increase the performance will be able to do so only with the map of the injection times.
I would add that you need to know the flow rate of an injector does not ? proportional to the pressure variation,the flow rate increases with the square root of the pressure increase...then double the rail pressure does not equate to double the flow injector, but "only" to 1/4...
the formula ?:flow2=flow1*sqrt of press1/press2....
sqrt=square root...
press1=700bar
press2=1400bar
flow1 in this calculation and 50mm3
flow2 and the new port injector with the press2...
to you the conclusions....
flow2 = 50*sqrt(700/1400)
flow2 = 50*sqrt 0,5
flow2 = 50* 0,7=35,35
C' ? something that should not be !!!
Maybe we need to do ; flow2=flow1*sqrt of press2/press1
and if so,
flow2=50*sqrt (1400/700)= 50*sqrt 2= 50*1,41= 70,7
From tests made at the tour any common rail pump bosch both with pumping units from 6,5 mm to 7 mm is able to reach approximately 2000 bar of pressure, with the injectors at maximum load at around 1300 rpm the pump then 2600 motor..the pump delphi pushes a p? pi?
Sorry tezzero but not me ? clear what you have written.
The common rail is not coming to 1350 bar ?
cicciogsr
26-12-2012, 01:42
I would add that you need to know the flow rate of an injector does not ? proportional to the pressure variation,the flow rate increases with the square root of the pressure increase...then double the rail pressure does not equate to double the flow injector, but "only" to 1/4...
the formula ?:flow2=flow1*sqrt of press1/press2....
sqrt=square root...
press1=700bar
press2=1400bar
flow1 in this calculation and 50mm3
flow2 and the new port injector with the press2...
to you the conclusions....
Munro-I'm sorry, can you explain the formula of the
Pressure?
you know how I formulas adapted to my middle school...
I do not have degrees more or less emblazoned...
you must excuse me...
the formula ? what you see...that the good lupak has also solved...
to simplify you can? also do
SQRT of press2/press1*50mg,=70,7
then the square root of 1400bar/700bar=1,41*50mg,=71,7 mg....
cicciogsr
26-12-2012, 02:09
I didn't want to criticize for me the flow and pressure you can bind to that formula, where did you get it? You have any document? So, we can better understand, for me, it ties in pressure and speed, and after the game enters the flow
why do you say that the pressure and flow you can bind it??
I from the bottom of my ingnoranza I think that the pressure and flow of any fluid are strongly linked between them...
anyway..I rely on this...
cicciogsr
26-12-2012, 09:58
The pressure, you can tie with a speed difference? for example by applying the bernoulli's equation and, subsequently, knowing the characteristics of the fluid, the geometry of the flow to calculate the flow.. The formula of the first has no physical meaning ? as if you're comparing potatoes with artichokes from measurements we have obtained the formula for finding the coefficient, which is fine for that engine, and for that type of injectors benza.. Try to use it on your car to measure the flow rate in the diagnosis before and after increased the pressure...
lupak the common rail arrives safely to 2000 bar I tell you
Formulas part.. I say that if I do work on the test bench the injectors with a load at pleasure example, about 60 hz ? a load average.. with a pressure of 800 bar avr? a flow rate of (x) cubic cm in 20 seconds, if you increase the pressure, the flow rate increases..guaranteed, and of course c'? also a precise mathematical formula that takes into account the characteristics of the fluid (diesel oil) of the length and the cross section of the connecting tubes
lupak the common rail arrives safely to 2000 bar I tell you
You'll believe you, but you said to 1300 rpm, 1000 rpm, how much pressure should I be able to have ?
Sorry fosre we are leaving a bit off topic.
explode82
26-12-2012, 23:36
what I wanted to say I and that ? was misunderstood,and that ? true that if you increase the pressure of the fuel increases the quantity? injected,ma ? a deal? anyway paltry for what ? the function of the rail if, in fact, if you leave ori the rail and do a reading with a diagnosis of the deal? injected and repeat increasing the rail you see the difference ? just a little,especially for the increases damage usually on the rail map, then ? normal that if you put a module and deception for the sensor the ecu responds differently why? escape the controls that it has in addition the pressure tends to go to the stars...........then with regard to the laws of fluid dynamics that ? another thing
Formulas part.. I say that if I do work on the test bench the injectors with a load at pleasure example, about 60 hz ? a load average.. with a pressure of 800 bar avr? a flow rate of (x) cubic cm in 20 seconds, if you increase the pressure, the flow rate increases..guaranteed, and of course c'? also a precise mathematical formula that takes into account the characteristics of the fluid (diesel oil) of the length and the cross section of the connecting tubes
tezzero this topic interests me a lot..you may parlarcen please??maybe a thread specific??
thanks...
Guys, also if a pp old beautiful post....
So here is my question,I am working on my alfa 156 jtd edc15c7
I have adjusted the map fumes with max iq 82mm3,driwer wish max 85mm3
Doing a log I find as iq in mg/i values of 75/80 mg...
sorry but the map smoke would not be a limiter of iq???
..
Then, on the edc15 the value of iq is considered to be in mm3
Regarding your question, the limiter you are fumes to is a limiter of iq.
You'll have 82 mm3 at the maximum if the sensor quantity of air sucked in will read a worth that to have 82 mm3.
Whereas, there are other limiters .
ok but in the log I as the values of 80mg are more than 82mm3.....*****and is it possible???
mail the "ends of the map,"I can give you a hand if you want........
I opened a post in this section beginners..."opinion map 156 110cv"
however, I in the map fumes I as the value of the last breakpoint 82mm3 throughout the column......if it is the only limiter, diesel or diagnosis with multiecuscan is not truthful or do not know.....
I'm a beginner,can I not display,I need it hw,sw
edc15c7-ALFA 156 1.9 JTD 110 HP 0281010335_1037351517 this is the original that is ecm titanium
edc15c7-ALFA 156 1.9 JTD 110 HP 0281010335_1037351517 this is the original that is ecm titanium
you'll spot the limiters to "unlock" the machine:073232 075502 0757c0 076796 077558 0775f4 077ea6 07811c 078198 07822c check them out well I gave it a quick look.......then of course there are all the different maps, the management have already changed.
the last thing a council close the egr to the indirizzo071e80 and map mass air flow sensor 072236
you can when you have time, tell me what are these limiters???
the erg, I've already closed the map, mass air flow sensor on the basis of what should be change???
however, I did another log at idle rpm(850 rpm and 450mg air) and I like the iq 4mg/i; if I go in my map smokes I take the column of the 350mm3(would be 452mg I did 350*weight spec.air) at 800 rpm I as the value 25mm3 that if I mg become 21,25....
is there something that I did not go back......
I have discovered...
Injected it in myself more diesel than that calculated map smoke because in the torque limiter of the values I had calculated in mm3 instead are mg....
Hello do you know what is that address 07822c ? In my damos nn there is the description
if could you explain to me what would I thank you in advance.
I am a beginner also and I interpret the map it is difficult for me...also the other addresses I found them all but if you can give me a small description would you help me.....
IS the initial amount base map M_fuel = f ( N , T_water ) ( 10x8 )
1 * 10E - 2 (motor speed conversion , temperature conversion) / mm ^ 3
grad C
this is the translation of the description using ****** translator.
hello
This map 07822c is a map for the amount of diesel in the start-up phase
you'll spot the limiters to "unlock" the machine:073232 075502 0757c0 076796 077558 0775f4 077ea6 07811c 078198 07822c check them out well I gave it a quick look.......then of course there are all the different maps, the management have already changed.
the last thing a council close the egr to the indirizzo071e80 and map mass air flow sensor 072236
checking tt addresses data only some are right in the sense that are limiters of iq, but other nn serve according to me
IS the initial amount base map M_fuel = f ( N , T_water ) ( 10x8 )
1 * 10E - 2 (motor speed conversion , temperature conversion) / mm ^ 3
grad C
this is the translation of the description using ****** translator.
hello
Could you attach your damos saw that in my lack of descriptions maps please
then the map will not tap???
I am attaching the damos I have translated all the addresses but I did not understand much ,if once find the addresses of what to match on damos, and I want to help you thank you!!!
hello!!
considering that this is a very fair response
then the map will not tap???
I am attaching the damos I have translated all the addresses but I did not understand much ,if once find the addresses of what to match on damos, and I want to help you thank you!!!
hello!!
No't need to touch it only affects l starter no increase in the power
considering that this is a very fair response
What do you mean?
No't need to touch it only affects l starter no increase in the power
Ok.............
you exact was my fault for the address,and I forgot the other.......
for the mass air flow sensor there is a rule,I've found it to delete it,the other will increase in proportion to other the "linearize"etc. I don't know the rule right....
I explain better the axes of the map, mass air flow sensor and conversions....
the z-axis what indicates???
E-mail l address of the map, mass air flow sensor that I can just take a look and let you know
072236 the beginning of the map, mass air flow sensor
072236 the beginning of the map, mass air flow sensor
EKA intake port shut-off, setpoint, cycle = f (N, M_fuel) (10x10)
duty cycle conversion (motor speed conversion, 1 * 10E-2)/%
this is the description according to damos
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